norseman
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Post by norseman on Oct 25, 2019 7:12:22 GMT 10
If "Martial Law" is ever declared nation wide in Oz then I reckon there will be no coming back from that point on! It will never be the same country ever again! I very much think that after a week or two in a condition of a non functioning economy, broken supply chain, a growing non-compliant population, no paycheck and no place to spend it anyway then the Police and Military will be dumpstering their uniforms and going home with their weapons to look after their own house literally!
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Post by spinifex on Oct 25, 2019 19:04:18 GMT 10
How will you know if the 'official' people coming to take your stuff will even use it for the 'public interest'? By the time that kind of thing starts happening those requisitioning your stuff will most likely be doing it entirely for their own benefit. It will likely be looting masquerading as an official act. Probably the good little sheep will even rationalise their losses as 'the right thing'. Ever had one of those days when you carefully type out a reply and then redo it a few times and then think about it and delete the entire reply and type uh huh ? Yes. Welcome to my world!
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Post by spinifex on Oct 25, 2019 19:10:31 GMT 10
If "Martial Law" is ever declared nation wide in Oz then I reckon there will be no coming back from that point on! It will never be the same country ever again! I very much think that after a week or two in a condition of a non functioning economy, broken supply chain, a growing non-compliant population, no paycheck and no place to spend it anyway then the Police and Military will be dumpstering their uniforms and going home with their weapons to look after their own house literally! I'm really keen to find a real world example of this kind of turn of events happening. From what I read folks keep their uniforms and use it as part of their foraging kit. Suddenly every road becomes a toll road with check-points manned by armed uniforms wanting a bribe? Societies never seem to revolt to the extent that armies lose control of their population.
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spatial
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Post by spatial on Oct 25, 2019 23:53:04 GMT 10
I think preppers are paranoid in this regard. There are millions of tonnes of grain in silos, huge fishing fleets, billions of tonnes of fruit etc in cold storage ( for example most apples are kept in cold storage for a full year prior to hitting the shelves), large industrial farms and feedlots. Plenty of food to feed all of Australia for a good few months if not a year.
There are so few people with extra food storage that an operation with a few hundred security forces cordoning off a suburb then searching all houses would cost more food and resources than it is worth. Door to door house searching is very resource intensive and takes a long time. Was involved in a few 'black' townships raids for weapons etc. Military was used to cordon off entire township control all access then police and special units go door to door searching - you just see people running between houses and it is pandemonium trying to control such a situation. Australia including ADF have so few boots on the ground it is not a workable solution.
Think of Venezuela the gov just took over all the supermarkets - there has been no door to door searching only bandits going door to door.
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norseman
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Post by norseman on Oct 26, 2019 6:23:12 GMT 10
If "Martial Law" is ever declared nation wide in Oz then I reckon there will be no coming back from that point on! It will never be the same country ever again! I very much think that after a week or two in a condition of a non functioning economy, broken supply chain, a growing non-compliant population, no paycheck and no place to spend it anyway then the Police and Military will be dumpstering their uniforms and going home with their weapons to look after their own house literally! I'm really keen to find a real world example of this kind of turn of events happening. From what I read folks keep their uniforms and use it as part of their foraging kit. Suddenly every road becomes a toll road with check-points manned by armed uniforms wanting a bribe? Societies never seem to revolt to the extent that armies lose control of their population. spinifex Take your point but as I specified in my post Martial Law on a nation wide scale then that would be one full blown "event" that's unfolding to justify such a response. Look at the size of this country and look at the limited resources that will be called up to police it. Also regarding the desertion issue here are some examples (remembering here these are relatively small areas):- "Fifty-one members of the New Orleans Police Department — 45 officers and six civilian employees — were fired Friday for abandoning their posts before or after Hurricane Katrina. " "They were terminated due to them abandoning the department prior to the storm," acting superintendent Warren Riley said. They either left before the hurricane or 10 to 12 days after the storm and we have never heard from them. Police were unable to account for 240 officers on the 1,450-member force following Katrina. The force has been investigating them to see if they left their posts during the storm." "As of October 7, 2006, 12,000 Iraqi Police deserted and 4,000 were killed." "The simple house on a street ridden with potholes in this town on Colombia's restive border with Venezuela has become a refuge for the newly homeless: 40 Venezuelan soldiers who abandoned their posts and ran for their lives."
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Post by milspec on Oct 26, 2019 6:50:08 GMT 10
I'm really keen to find a real world example of this kind of turn of events happening. From what I read folks keep their uniforms and use it as part of their foraging kit. Suddenly every road becomes a toll road with check-points manned by armed uniforms wanting a bribe? Societies never seem to revolt to the extent that armies lose control of their population. spinifex Take your point but as I specified in my post Martial Law on a nation wide scale then that would be one full blown "event" that's unfolding to justify such a response. Look at the size of this country and look at the limited resources that will be called up to police it. Also regarding the desertion issue here are some examples (remembering here these are relatively small areas):- "Fifty-one members of the New Orleans Police Department — 45 officers and six civilian employees — were fired Friday for abandoning their posts before or after Hurricane Katrina. " "They were terminated due to them abandoning the department prior to the storm," acting superintendent Warren Riley said. They either left before the hurricane or 10 to 12 days after the storm and we have never heard from them. Police were unable to account for 240 officers on the 1,450-member force following Katrina. The force has been investigating them to see if they left their posts during the storm." "As of October 7, 2006, 12,000 Iraqi Police deserted and 4,000 were killed." "The simple house on a street ridden with potholes in this town on Colombia's restive border with Venezuela has become a refuge for the newly homeless: 40 Venezuelan soldiers who abandoned their posts and ran for their lives."
45 police officers out of 1450 = 3.1%, not really that big of a reduction in their capability. Comparing a professional defence force to a post war Iraqi police force isn't going to give you a meaningful insight as to how things will pan out in the near term after an SHTF event. Granted that could change in the long term depending on the severity of the event.
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norseman
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Post by norseman on Oct 26, 2019 7:43:59 GMT 10
spinifex Take your point but as I specified in my post Martial Law on a nation wide scale then that would be one full blown "event" that's unfolding to justify such a response. Look at the size of this country and look at the limited resources that will be called up to police it. Also regarding the desertion issue here are some examples (remembering here these are relatively small areas):- "Fifty-one members of the New Orleans Police Department — 45 officers and six civilian employees — were fired Friday for abandoning their posts before or after Hurricane Katrina. " "They were terminated due to them abandoning the department prior to the storm," acting superintendent Warren Riley said. They either left before the hurricane or 10 to 12 days after the storm and we have never heard from them. Police were unable to account for 240 officers on the 1,450-member force following Katrina. The force has been investigating them to see if they left their posts during the storm." "As of October 7, 2006, 12,000 Iraqi Police deserted and 4,000 were killed." "The simple house on a street ridden with potholes in this town on Colombia's restive border with Venezuela has become a refuge for the newly homeless: 40 Venezuelan soldiers who abandoned their posts and ran for their lives."
45 police officers out of 1450 = 3.1%, not really that big of a reduction in their capability. Comparing a professional defence force to a post war Iraqi police force isn't going to give you a meaningful insight as to how things will pan out in the near term after an SHTF event. Granted that could change in the long term depending on the severity of the event.
milspec You forgot this bit:- "Police were unable to account for 240 officers on the 1,450-member force following Katrina. The force has been investigating them to see if they left their posts during the storm." The severity of the event is the issue, if something so full blown occurs that it requires nationwide "Martial Law" we are never coming back! If it's a regional or localised event and short in duration fair enough. Nationwide and something that is going to go on for not weeks but months or even years then even the most normally placid and compliant sheeple folk in OZ are going to get very sick and very tired of the Police and Military trying to herd them around in ever decreasing circles! At the end of the day the masses through utter desperation will call them out and then the Sh*t really will hit the fan! milspec you have a good handle on most preparedness topics and your prior professional background is an enormous asset but the fact you are here and you and your partner are prepping at an intensive level at your rural location indicates to me that your faith in our institutions and their capability is way less than 100% !!
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Post by spinifex on Oct 26, 2019 12:40:57 GMT 10
The soviet union was effectively under martial law from 1918 to 1988, then collapsed, and now? Germany and Japan were effectively under martial law from mid 1930's to 1945 and now? Iran and NK are effectively under martial law as is much of Africa - in all those places being in the military and police are likely quite good survival choices. Once in ... deserting from them probably results in execution for the deserted and unsavory outcomes for the deserters family.
There is half-ass bumbling martial law attempts (the US seems prone to this style) and then there is the other kind as listed above.
Question: Is the ADF professional enough to do the job of keeping unarmed civvies in line? Question: Would the Oz 'government' not 'invite' US (or Chinese) 'peacekeepers' to help them maintain order?
If I was an Iraqi I'd avoid being police like the plague as well ... once the US leaves ... their lives won't be worth living when the next 'other kind' of martial law based government takes over. "Filthy collaborators" don't last long. They get rounded up and given harsh treatments.
Prediction: Keep an eye on Hong Kong. Watch how Chinese officialdom crushes dissent to restore order and how anarchy does not take hold.
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spatial
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Post by spatial on Oct 26, 2019 15:50:01 GMT 10
Global economy is going to fail, it will be a big free for all. The US will have enough of their own problems, hurricane Katrina was an isolated event yet still so much AWOL, if the problems become are national or country wide - it is a whole new ball game.
In the initial stages I will volunteer to help local police maintain law and order - thin out all the scumbags. hehheee All those neighbours with barking dogs watch out!!! Once food and fuel become scares then need reevaluation.
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