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Post by SA Hunter on Mar 1, 2016 22:19:09 GMT 10
Ok, here there is a LOT of really good discussion and information on preparing for a shtf scenario. This was the reason it was started by Wayne, and now run by NH. This is a place to learn, share, and discuss preparedness for a whole range of scenarios ( and, we also like to have a bit of fun too)!! I'm going to go up another level - and start a conversation on some thought provoking discussion. It's a shtf, and I mean, it's bad, not just a few days, I'm talking this is going on for a few weeks, even months. Fuel supplies have run out, no power, running water, sewerage, shops are bare, and it's only just started. Emergency services have ground to a halt, and cannot respond to any situation. The Defence Force has been called up, but they can't be everywhere. Looters are being shot on sight, curfews are in effect, but no one is really abiding. Those with radios can only listen to an unconvincing talk asking everyone to stay calm, to abide by the law, and wait for help. Assurances are there, help will arrive, but it will take a lot longer to come than most have supplies to survive. Disease is popping up (dysentry, cholera to name a few). Hospitals have been looted of all medications, and what skeleton crews are working are pushed beyond their limits, with no resources, all they can do is utter words of comfort. However you are prepared, it's time to make some real decisions, not a tiptoe amongst the tulips decision. You're house is under attack ( assuming you are bugging in ) or your BOL is compromised, and there is an angry, wild, hungry hoarde coming for you and your supplies. Not saying they know you have any, it's just that you are next in their sight. And I mean, an angry, hungry hoarde, united by one thing - get what you have, who cares if they kill you, they want what you have, or what they think you might have. It's easy to hit the keyboard and type "damn right, I'll blow them to hell!!!!!" But, have you ever been shot at?? Have you ever felt the bullet pass by so close that you knew that if you hadn't moved this way, or ducked enough, that you would be dead?  ? Have you ever fired a gun in anger at another person??? Have you ever had someone in your sights, finger on the trigger, knowing that if they made one wrong move you would have to pull the trigger??? Are you prepared to live with the mental consequences of killing someone??? And what if you accidently killed someone??? Could you live with yourself??? Or, what if, assuming you are in a collective of people who have prepared, that they turn on you?? What if your own family members turn on you, and you are put in a position that you either kill them, or lose your supplies?? Could you kill a spouse, parent, or even a child??? It's easy to surmise, "yep, I'm protecting my family, myself, my loved ones, it's them or us". This isn't a discussion for heroes. This is an honest discussion on taking another life. Are you REALLY ok with that??? |
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gasman
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Post by gasman on Mar 2, 2016 7:21:08 GMT 10
Nobody really knows how they would react until they are in that situation. All I can say for myself is a very long time ago I was in several situations that involved loaded firearms, (gun loaded, finger on the trigger), that I was prepared to shoot someone but didn't need to, and that on 1 occasion I had a loaded revolver pushed into my stomach. On that occasion I stayed completely calm and diffused the situation by acting very non aggressively. My mother also stayed very calm when she was the victim of a home invasion by 2 men armed with a sawn off shotgun, even when they tied her up. Perhaps it runs in the family. As for my children turning on me? They are my world, we are very close, and that is far too horrible to contemplate. I couldn't hurt my children, I'd rather die myself. A violent life or death situation is something few of us experience in our lives unless you are emergency services Thinking thru scenarios like home invasion angry mobs etc, then discussing researching and training for them gives you a course of action to follow in a very stressful situation In our meets we have an ex cop and he adds a lot to training for such an unfamiliar stressful scenario |
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Post by hansdahun on Mar 2, 2016 8:00:01 GMT 10
This is just my opinion.
Those who believe in a Christian god usually have problems with killing and the guilt afterwards.
Those without a god to appease have far less trouble with the killing and there is rarely any guilt afterwards.
I care not to kill unless it is needed but if it is needed it is just another task done, move on no regrets.
I have no god to appease one way or another. No god no Sin no worries.
and yes I have been shot twice and stabbed three times, I am no stranger to conflict.
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Mar 2, 2016 9:56:28 GMT 10
Good question Jay.
I have never been in a situation like that so have no idea I would react to be honest. I have been fights (sport and street) but they do not compare to when weapons and life and death are brought into the equation.
I would like to think I would do what is anything necessary to protect my family. My families safety comes above my own, not trying to be a hero as I am not one.
A phrase from boxing comes to mind........"everyone has a game plan until they get punched in the face"
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Post by SA Hunter on Mar 2, 2016 10:04:16 GMT 10
This is just my opinion. Those who believe in a Christian god usually have problems with killing and the guilt afterwards. Those without a god to appease have far less trouble with the killing and there is rarely any guilt afterwards. I care not to kill unless it is needed but if it is needed it is just another task done, move on no regrets. I have no god to appease one way or another. No god no Sin no worries. and yes I have been shot twice and stabbed three times, I am no stranger to conflict. Even an atheist has a conscience of right and wrong. I don't think it's an issue of appeasing your God, but having to live with yourself afterwards. Have spoken to many soldiers, current or ex, and most have no religious belief, and they have killed, and they have trouble sleeping at night, they still have nightmares, even though they know what they did was "right". I guess that's what I wanted to do, was start an "in your face" discussion. |
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Ammo9
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Post by Ammo9 on Mar 2, 2016 11:09:48 GMT 10
To protect my family, I would do terrible things.
(I started with the above sentence and then wrote about 500 words, just sitting at a cafe thinking about my family and girlfriend and being in a disaster situation. Then I realized that none of you actually care about my family, but probably feel the same way I do about your own. I wrote down strengths and flaws of my family, the things I love and hate, and how I thought they would react to a seriously stressful situation. I actually got a lot out of just writing down my family dynamics and how I would want to react if my family was internally or externally threatened... but all you really need to know is the first thing I wrote.)
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Post by hansdahun on Mar 2, 2016 11:50:10 GMT 10
To protect my family, I would do terrible things. (I started with the above sentence and then wrote about 500 words, just sitting at a cafe thinking about my family and girlfriend and being in a disaster situation. Then I realized that none of you actually care about my family, but probably feel the same way I do about your own. I wrote down strengths and flaws of my family, the things I love and hate, and how I thought they would react to a seriously stressful situation. I actually got a lot out of just writing down my family dynamics and how I would want to react if my family was internally or externally threatened... but all you really need to know is the first thing I wrote.) Why do you refer to terrible things? YOU would only be doing good things for you and yours
Those things would only be terrible to others.
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Post by Peter on Mar 2, 2016 22:22:10 GMT 10
That's the advantage I have with my particular personality type; I tend to justify extreme actions within the context of my own priorities.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2016 7:14:44 GMT 10
It is easy to say how easy it is to kill!!! Even soldiers champ at the bit to get into the action, but the reality is, when you have some one in front of you and you can see they are a person it is not that easy, even with training. When you take a life you loose part of yourself!!!
It can be easy in certain circumstances to pull the trigger, but after the Adrenalin wears of the guilt comes, and if you need to keep killing it does get easier,but the guilt gets even worse.
We where not built to kill, that is why PTSD (Post-traumatic stress disorder) is the main injury our service men and women face. Even the elite troupes suffer in silence!
There are sum people that have no remorse: Sociopaths: Anti-social personality disorder. A lack of remorse is one of the characteristics of anti-social personality disorder. This is just a part of the disorder, not something that can be changed. People can be brain washed to kill again it is mentally degenerative.
From a religious view:
QUESTION: I am studying the Ten Commandments. Please explain the Sixth Commandment that says "thou shalt not kill."
ANSWER: The commandment "thou shalt not kill" (found in the KJV Bible translation of Exodus 20:13), also listed as "thou shall not kill" is better understood in the New King James Version Bible.
"You shall not murder." (Exodus 20:13, NKJV throughout)
Most modern translations of the Bible rendered it this way.
According to the Bible not all killing is murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of a human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings and not to animals. God gave animals to mankind for his use (Genesis 1:26-30; 9:1-4). But, this does not mean that humans have the right mistreat animals and the environment (Genesis 2:15; Deuteronomy 22:6-7; 25:4; Proverbs 12:10).
Under the Old Covenant ancient Israelites were allowed to kill other humans under very special circumstances such as punishment for certain sins, for example, murder (Exodus 21:12-14, Leviticus 24:17, 21) and adultery (Leviticus 20:10, Deuteronomy 22:22-24). God also allowed the Israelites to engage in warfare and even gave them instructions about waging war (Deuteronomy 20:1-20). God also recognized that humans might accidentally kill each other, and he made provisions for this (Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 19:1-13).
The primary reason God hates murder is that out of all creation, only human are made in his image and likeness (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:4-6). Even before the codification of the Ten Commandments at Mount Sinai, the murder of other human beings was wrong (Genesis 4:8-12; 4:23-24; 9:4-6; Exodus 1:16-17). While on earth, Jesus spoke out against murder (Matthew 5:21-26; Mark 10:17-19). We also see in the writings of Paul (Romans 1:18, 29-32; 13:8-10; Galatians 5:19-21), James (James 2:8-11; 4:1-3), Peter (1 Peter 4:15-16) and John (Revelation 9:20-21; 21:7-8; 22:14-15) that murder is wrong.
But at the end of the day, if TSHTF you would either defend your self and family and friends or die, no question! Yes there are consequences for each and every action we take, the rest of the equations is how strong you are as a person. Some people will see a vicious crime/attack and be blubbering mess, others will stand strong and some, some where in between.
A hero is a person who even though they may be shit scared will over ride his/her fear to protect those he/she loves or cares about, with out thought for him/her self. Heroes are not necessarily well trained or super-fit, they may not be good looking with perfect bodies.
And until the time comes, most of us do not really know what will happen till it happens! Yes some people are "Sheep Dogs" now who hate injustice and bullies and will fight to protect others, but killing is another thing!
I am willing to live with the consequences!!! are you!
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Post by hansdahun on Mar 4, 2016 12:14:37 GMT 10
I am willing to live with the consequences!!! are you!
LIVING IS THE CONSEQUENCE.
I see no problem with doing what needs to be done when it needs to be done regardless of what it is
This concept of right/wrong needs to be left behind. It is a civilized concept for a civilized world
Adapt. Do not analyse your actions with old world thinking, just do it if it needs doing and move on.
You can not break laws if those laws no longer apply.
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Post by hansdahun on Mar 4, 2016 15:40:54 GMT 10
but you can still break the laws of human decency. Doing terrible things is doing terrible things, regardless of whom the victim is. I believe you should try to survive without becoming an ogre. For example, your family is starving, you come across a farm with crops/stock/orchard/whatever: You could choose to sneak in at night and steal only what your family needs to survive, using the absolute minimum amount of violence or you could raid the farm, kill or take prisoner everyone, and take all they have for your family. The choice is yours, but remember, Karma can be a real . From a previous post.
"I care not to kill unless it is needed but if it is needed it is just another task done, move on no regrets."
If I could get what was needed by stealth without killing that would be my first option but not my only option. but again it would be after the possibility of trade is ruled out!
I would rather trade for my needs than steal, I would rather steal than kill. All depends on the other party.
My primary Aim would be to meet my needs (not my wants) and not get killed.
I will not be frocking up in auscam and playing soldier as many here and on other forums intend to do, sneaking around and killing any and all tresspassers etc etc.
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Post by hansdahun on Mar 4, 2016 15:45:43 GMT 10
but you can still break the laws of human decency. Doing terrible things is doing terrible things, regardless of whom the victim is. I believe you should try to survive without becoming an ogre. For example, your family is starving, you come across a farm with crops/stock/orchard/whatever: You could choose to sneak in at night and steal only what your family needs to survive, using the absolute minimum amount of violence or you could raid the farm, kill or take prisoner everyone, and take all they have for your family. The choice is yours, but remember, Karma can be a real . Define human decency in a PA setting? Define terrible things in a PA setting? please provide benchmarks not just emotional reactions?
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Ammo9
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Post by Ammo9 on Mar 4, 2016 16:08:37 GMT 10
...damn it I'm out of popcorn. Can you two do this later?
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Ammo9
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Post by Ammo9 on Mar 4, 2016 16:39:59 GMT 10
that's not in the spirit of internet arguments frostbite... you need to try and one up him, call him a girls name then say you had intercourse with a family member
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Post by hansdahun on Mar 4, 2016 17:17:32 GMT 10
frostbite
Why all the anger?
I came to this forum because it seemed nicer than some of the others yet I ask a few questions and get hostile responses
You don't live near mango hill in QLD by any chance?
Might go join Aussurvivalist probably less hostility there by the looks of it.
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Mar 4, 2016 18:18:28 GMT 10
Gentlemen,
Calm down, no need for arguments, name calling, insults or bulls**t assumptions about this forum. We encourage discussion and the sharing of ideas and thoughts even if it discussion does lean toward the "robust" end of the spectrum it is OK. iness, insults and rubbish will not be tolerated.
I understand this kind of thing can be a touchy subject and people will have a variety of views on the matter.
Now, back on subject......
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Ammo9
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Post by Ammo9 on Mar 4, 2016 18:19:55 GMT 10
I'm not trying to be rude but you asked the question
You come across in your posts as really arrogant and condescending. Also I highly doubt the truth in some things you share.
I don't want you to leave the forum or stop posting, I want you to keep sharing your knowledge with us. But maybe try do it in less of a gospel-according-to-hans style and more casually like a group of people having a regular conversation. Try not to turn everything into a competition or spectacle and you won't get people's backs up...
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Post by hansdahun on Mar 4, 2016 19:21:01 GMT 10
A liar however I am not. Sorry not trying to be rude.
As you doubt my word my knowledge is worthless to you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2016 19:30:37 GMT 10
I am willing to live with the consequences!!! are you! LIVING IS THE CONSEQUENCE. I see no problem with doing what needs to be done when it needs to be done regardless of what it is This concept of right/wrong needs to be left behind. It is a civilized concept for a civilized world Adapt. Do not analyse your actions with old world thinking, just do it if it needs doing and move on. You can not break laws if those laws no longer apply. Jay in his post asked: "This is an honest discussion on taking another life. Are you REALLY ok with that??? " From a medical point of view I made my post! Again from my point of view, an honest person has in-built morals that will not allow them to treat others in a way that is detrimental! I know from experience that to take a life has detrimental effects on you! I also know that there are people who do not have morals and the law stops them from going to far. A time where there is no law would allow these people to openly hurt humanity. There are a lot of arm chair want'a be's or mall ninja's out there, running round like cow boys/militia, and that is part of life. The bottom line for me is: I am a prepared person who can see the danger and prepare for it. I don't need to steal or hurt anyone as I provide for my family while I can and I learn skills do be able to do so. I am willing to help those who help themselves as well. We all have our own thoughts and no ones thoughts are wrong, they may be different to others but not wrong, so getting into arguments or mud slinging for us on this site is not who we are or want to be!!!!!!!!! We are all here hopefully to learn and exchange ideas and help one another.... Some times I disagree with what some one may say but keep it to myself!!!!!! So lets keep it civil! |
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Mar 4, 2016 21:06:27 GMT 10
OK!
Hans, AT and Frost: No more comments of a personal nature please. Last warning or I will start chopping up this thread and removing posts, which I don't want to have to do. Amongst the iness are some worthwhile comments, so I don't want to hack it all up. As Gaz said, Keep it civil.
And keep it on topic!
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