remnantprep
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Post by remnantprep on Jul 17, 2016 16:34:45 GMT 10
So only the religious from this list need enlightenment to come out of their barbaric behaviour???
France under bimonthly attack (Religious)
Coup in Turkey (Not Religious)
Americans revolting over black lives matter (Not religious)
Syria middle East in general, ISIS. (Both not religious and religious at the same time)
China flexing it muscles in the South China Sea militarizing it. (Not religious)
And North Korea threatening South Korea with the US having nearly 30 000 military personnel there since the Korean war & going to build air defence stations. (Not religious although the worship of the Korean leader borders on religion)
Breakaway Russian States, that's gone quiet lately but I'm sure it's still going on, you remember when they shot down that passenger plane? (Not religious)
Not to mention the forever ongoing wars and genocides across Africa. (religious and tribal)
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grumble
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Post by grumble on Jul 17, 2016 20:49:33 GMT 10
I will tread carefully here as threads like this end up getting messy
But having had some close involvement with families from Iraq , Syria and Libya I noticed a common trend and that was unless you were someone who for religious or political reasons put yourself on the radar of the current "Evil Regime " your life wasn't to bad in terms of the greater picture I mean Syria had a very good public health system and in Libya their health system and standard of living was on par with Europe in a lot of ways. When your infant mortality is on par with Britain you know you are doing something right lets not also forget a very fundamental thing as well in all these countries females had rights they had the constitutional rights to do the following Go to school go to university become doctors , lawyers, professors the list goes on hold positions within the government the right and freedom to dress as they wished be it western styled jeans and t-shirt or a more modestly they had the right to chose for themselves they could drive cars and own firearms
most importantly they were deemed citizens of their country and had basic human rights very simular to any western country yes thee were times there were cultural and religious clashes but those mainly come from the opposition that opposed the presiding government and couldn't stand any of the westernisation of "their country "even though the majority had no problem with it
lets take a moment to reflect on the lives of the people like us before and after liberation from these evil regimes
www.globalresearch.ca/libya-ten-things-about-gaddafi-they-dont-want-you-to-know/5414289
Now for those that took the time to watch the videos you have to ask one question Are these people any better off?
Now for the record I don't believe that they were totally innocent leaders they had their share of blood on their hands and did some messed up things but is any leader of any country free of blood on their hands be it their own peoples or some other countries
People can't see that for all we have sown its time to reap
its important to note that OUR governments policies and it support of other countries policies aid in the destruction of these nation and create the next generation of people who hate the west enough to harm us
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paranoia
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Post by paranoia on Jul 17, 2016 21:01:58 GMT 10
Whilst I did not take the time to watch the videos, my reading of the situation is people are definitely worse off.
Its the height of arrogance and egotism to think you can see problems as an outsider, think you are so smart that you know what is best for the country and use war to improve a situation.
"Kindly let me help you or else you will drown," said the monkey, putting the fish safely up a tree.
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remnantprep
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Post by remnantprep on Jul 17, 2016 21:22:52 GMT 10
They are surely worse off! There is so much more to the Syrian conflict! 1) The whole Arab spring thing! 2) The destabilisation of the Middle east! (The West has a huge part to play in this!) 3) The fuel pipelines that were to run through the middle east into Europe! (see image below) Attachments:
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Post by Joey on Jul 18, 2016 0:01:46 GMT 10
At least before all this current "liberation" thing started, all those mean and nasty leaders kept all these terrorists in check.
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Jul 18, 2016 5:31:43 GMT 10
So only the religious from this list need enlightenment to come out of their barbaric behaviour??? Ha, I'm curious, where did I mention or infer that specifically? What I was referring to was the 'age of enlightenment' specifically to Syria, to which I was specific I believe. The reason I lean towards that is that nothing else has worked and whilst we have learned the lessons in the West, they have yet to have their own realization of separation despite our example. Our interference has only made it worse and now they attack 'us' for our desire to help out. The way I see it is like in medieval times, if you didn't prepare for winter after being encouraged, told and pleaded with, your starvation comes from your poor choices in eating all of the seed crop or not preparing and it's lesson for others to not make the same mistake. They are at that point in my mind, lets all step back as we're becoming 'the other' [see below], let them burn themselves out [wont take long without outside support] and bring them together again so they can have a conversation and work on a solution. There's some good guys in the middle east who are well respected and follow reason, such as: Professor ibrahim al-buleihi former Arab council member, and current Saudi Council Member - may 2006 "They [terrorists] are the product of a culture that believes the other does not deserve to live and is an absolute enemy with whom no understanding is possible. There is a fundamental flaw in our culture that leads to this behavior and which is implemented by those who kill innocent people - women, children and people who have done nothing wrong - did not emerge out of thin air, but is the product of this culture. This is a one dimensional culture, a culture of tyranny - tyranny in culture, in politics, in society, in the family and in everything. The 'other' does not have to be someone completely different. When we disagree with someone even over a shoe-shine, we regard him as the 'other' we boycott him, we excommunicate him, defame him, level accusations at him and so on." - source So we have the problem of 'other' the other sect and so on, this is a problem of power within a group that ties religion and state together. There is also other ways that good people are turned evil via the use of 'other' such as BLM [systematic white racism, aka whites are 'other'] and so on. It's one of the main ways evil ideas propagate. These things were well talked about in the age of enlightenment, the solution that people think of, the separation of church and state. --- In terms of enlightenment, that would depend on your definition, ergo; en·light·en·ment 1. the action of enlightening or the state of being enlightened. 2. a European intellectual movement of the late 17th and 18th centuries emphasizing reason and individualism rather than tradition. It was heavily influenced by 17th-century philosophers such as Descartes, Locke, and Newton, and its prominent exponents include Kant, Goethe, Voltaire, Rousseau, and Adam Smith.
If indeed we applied the ideas of the 17th and 18th century philosophers, to which is in the 'spirit' of what I mentioned, we can see that I have already applied such principles of reason over tradition. So of course we agree, barbarism can do with reason and this is best handled with truth [evidence]. There in lies a problem for some, such that reason challenges false information, such as the notion that having 6.5 times the criminality rate [blacks vs whites] and in some areas 100 times per capita the murder rates [Washington DC] that somehow means that when there's twice as many blacks who are resisting arrest are shot dead that there's some kind of institutional racism? That's clearly a lie of deception based on the evidence. So the argument can be made towards enlightenment and separation of the media who sit where the church once sat, with government in a symbiotic relationship, at least in the US. The crimes Hillary made are read out for all to see and no pursuit of criminality... and before you know it, *distraction* oh look over here... more police shooting blacks ... oh look rioting and the police are being killed because they're racist... So, yes morality, reason and evidence has been around since 500BC of what we know, yet it's only really since the age of enlightenment that we've bothered to apply it and the lack of application 'is' a solution to these spiraling issues. Time will tell the story, though this is why I prep, because I don't ultimately think reason will win out unfortunately, though I really really hope it does and why I, in my humble way, try to speak about it.
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steve
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Post by steve on Jul 18, 2016 9:11:29 GMT 10
Not that these are perfect plans, though seemingly obvious and a better direction; France - stop Muslim immigrantion, push back against anyone not following 'French' values in any way and deport any Muslim who is convicted for a criminal action. Send their family too for that matter. The Russians had a similar policy that worked against terrorists, though theirs was much harsher, they would kill them all. Turkey - Was a mess, will still be a mess, basically who cares, let them work out their own problems. US - tell the public the truth, that blacks commit crimes at 6.5 times the rate of whites and that per capita of crime/police murders means blacks are shot half as many times. Also point out that BLM is racist towards whites in many ways. Shame on them. Syria - who cares, get out and let them ruin their own country so that can learn the lessens that Europe did about religion China - trade sanctions will kill their 'faked' economy and bring them to their knees almost over night, exposing the massively corrupt system to their own people rather quickly. In stopping trading with them, plenty of other Asian countries nearby can pick up the reins and prosper, at least their 'dollar' is real. Russian States - not sure The world's a mess but telling the public the 'truth' will allow easy solutions to be found. Unfortunately it's better for the press and governments to distort reality for easier manipulation.
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remnantprep
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Post by remnantprep on Jul 18, 2016 9:57:10 GMT 10
"What I was referring to was the 'age of enlightenment' specifically to Syria, to which I was specific I believe. The reason I lean towards that is that nothing else has worked and whilst we have learned the lessons in the West, they have yet to have their own realization of separation despite our example. Our interference has only made it worse and now they attack 'us' for our desire to help out."
Why specifically to Syria, because when I look around the world I see a ton of non-religious groups acting in a non-enlightened way? Have we really become that enlightened in the West?
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Jul 18, 2016 19:50:34 GMT 10
I usually try to keep my involvement out of these types of discussions because I usually get too heated too fast. But I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses and opinions. Good to be in a group of adults who don't take others opinions to heart and glad ive become involved in the forum in general.
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Post by SA Hunter on Jul 18, 2016 20:30:53 GMT 10
I usually try to keep my involvement out of these types of discussions because I usually get too heated too fast. But I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses and opinions. Good to be in a group of adults who don't take others opinions to heart and glad ive become involved in the forum in general. Glad you're here too Chloe, and glad for your involvement. Yes, one thing we hold to heart here is that we encourage discussion here, even to disagree, as long as the discussion does not become personal, reverts to name calling, slander, abuse, etc etc etc. We also encourage these discussions as many of us prepare for events on a global picture - war, famine, financial collapse, disasters, to name a few. I think you will find a more mature, respectful, even "tongue in cheek" comments here on a range of subjects. Even if someone disagrees with an idea, I have seen conversations that had the potential to spiral out of control be handled in a calm, mature way, and as you said, there are those who declined to comment for the reasons you have mentioned. I can attest for Aus & the rest of the admin team - we have very specific goals and aims for this site, and being devisive, abusive, or swallowed up with conspiracies and the like, are something we will not allow to control the direction of this place. (In fact, in the Gold Lounge we even have a thread for "conspiracies", but it's rarely even used!!! Maybe we are just too level headed!!!
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Chloe
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Post by Chloe on Jul 18, 2016 21:01:48 GMT 10
I usually try to keep my involvement out of these types of discussions because I usually get too heated too fast. But I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses and opinions. Good to be in a group of adults who don't take others opinions to heart and glad ive become involved in the forum in general. Glad you're here too Chloe, and glad for your involvement. Yes, one thing we hold to heart here is that we encourage discussion here, even to disagree, as long as the discussion does not become personal, reverts to name calling, slander, abuse, etc etc etc. We also encourage these discussions as many of us prepare for events on a global picture - war, famine, financial collapse, disasters, to name a few. I think you will find a more mature, respectful, even "tongue in cheek" comments here on a range of subjects. Even if someone disagrees with an idea, I have seen conversations that had the potential to spiral out of control be handled in a calm, mature way, and as you said, there are those who declined to comment for the reasons you have mentioned. I can attest for Aus & the rest of the admin team - we have very specific goals and aims for this site, and being devisive, abusive, or swallowed up with conspiracies and the like, are something we will not allow to control the direction of this place. (In fact, in the Gold Lounge we even have a thread for "conspiracies", but it's rarely even used!!! Maybe we are just too level headed!!! Oh don't get me wrong I love a good conspiracy, but for the time it is just that, a conspiracy. But yes. Admin and mods do a wonderful job here and great to see everyone having discussions involving different opinions and no one name calling and acting like kids. Hats off to everyone!
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Jul 18, 2016 23:17:31 GMT 10
Why specifically to Syria, because when I look around the world I see a ton of non-religious groups acting in a non-enlightened way? Have we really become that enlightened in the West? That's conflating what I said, I did already ask on this topic on the later and it applies equally on the former, Me: Ha, I'm curious, where did I mention or infer that specifically? To which has yet to be satisfied. Further, I clarified such that [with reference to enlightenment just prior] Please don't put words in my mouth. To clarify my position, the West absolutely understands and applies reason and evidence 'better' than the Syria/middle east which is why we don't have barbaric laws and practices, much lower levels of criminality and so on. Very happy to expand the case there if need be. In terms of it needing work, for sure, constant vigilance, the media for example is like the church of old, it's full of distortion and false information leading to race riots as we have seen. That's on the misinformation of their presentation, aka lies to sell or to promote a political agenda [leftism]. The fact that alternative media are reporting levels of viewership higher than traditional media outlets [at least in non-print/non-tv] is a perfect example of people are well aware. The very low trust rating that people have in the media is another sign of it.
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remnantprep
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People do not exist for the sake of governments!
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Post by remnantprep on Jul 19, 2016 11:51:13 GMT 10
""Obviously it's been various things, though I think underlying was the countries unhappiness and conflict with two different [and opposed] versions of the same religion, very much like the European Religious Wars of 1524 to 1648, that was one factor that lead to the age of enlightenment to which I refer."" You say that Syria needs enlightenment, your first post on this topic stated that what was going on in Syria was a religious thing and they need an enlightenment! I replied that the war in Syria was not a religious thing to start with and under Assad many religions were protected, especially Christians! "[Assad] opened the country up to foreign trade, to tourism within the country and from abroad, to freedom of movement and of education for both men and women. Before the protests started, the number of women in the professional world had been constantly increasing, the university was open to all, and there was no discrimination on the basis of sex. The country was at peace, prosperity was on the rise, and human rights were respected. A common home and fatherland to many ethnicities and 23 different religious groups, Syria has always been a place where all were free to believe and live out their creed, all relationships were characterised by mutual respect. The freedom that is purportedly being brought to us by the rebels is precisely what this rebellion has taken away from us." www.globalresearch.ca/syria-bashar-al-assads-secular-governments-battle-against-isis-protects-pluralism-catholic-world-report/5422820Sounds like to me they were on their way to being enlightened! I also stated the following! They are surely worse off! There is so much more to the Syrian conflict! 1) The whole Arab spring thing! 2) The destabilisation of the Middle east! (The West has a huge part to play in this!) 3) The fuel pipelines that were to run through the middle east into Europe! (see image below) My point is that while you are saying "To clarify my position, the West absolutely understands and applies reason and evidence 'better' than the Syria/middle east which is why we don't have barbaric laws and practices, much lower levels of criminality and so on." I see the West involved in a ton of barbaric laws and practices which to me seems unenlightened! I guess this all just comes down to a different perspective (or rather the truth and evidence I see versus the truth and evidence you see) on the topic but yes the media is just a huge propaganda machine, shaping the thoughts of the people.
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tyburn
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Post by tyburn on Jul 19, 2016 13:34:53 GMT 10
At least before all this current "liberation" thing started, all those mean and nasty leaders kept all these terrorists in check. Yep, old Gaddafi couldn't believe it when the European powers started helping the rebels in Libya, as he thought he was besties with the French and a few others. He was just being welcomed back into the fold after stopping arming and funding all sorts of terrorist groups, meanwhile keeping local Islamist groups (Al-Qaeda etc) under control, then look what happens when he's knocked off. I saw some commentary in 2014 that said the world was looking very much like 1914 (with all sorts of events leading to WW1), but things have gotten more out of hand since then. Am I the only one who thinks the Turkish coup may have been a black flag op; or at least, allowed to happen by those in the know? It does provide a very timely excuse for Erdogan to remove thousands of top military leaders, judges and other opposition leaders. The other thing that seems to have been overlooked is that the militray were coming out in order to ensure the country remains secular, whereas Erdogen is moving more and more towards strict Islam laws (veils being enforced in some areas etc).
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Post by SA Hunter on Jul 19, 2016 14:15:44 GMT 10
At least before all this current "liberation" thing started, all those mean and nasty leaders kept all these terrorists in check. Yep, old Gaddafi couldn't believe it when the European powers started helping the rebels in Libya, as he thought he was besties with the French and a few others. He was just being welcomed back into the fold after stopping arming and funding all sorts of terrorist groups, meanwhile keeping local Islamist groups (Al-Qaeda etc) under control, then look what happens when he's knocked off. I saw some commentary in 2014 that said the world was looking very much like 1914 (with all sorts of events leading to WW1), but things have gotten more out of hand since then. Am I the only one who thinks the Turkish coup may have been a black flag op; or at least, allowed to happen by those in the know? It does provide a very timely excuse for Erdogan to remove thousands of top military leaders, judges and other opposition leaders. The other thing that seems to have been overlooked is that the militray were coming out in order to ensure the country remains secular, whereas Erdogen is moving more and more towards strict Islam laws (veils being enforced in some areas etc). I agree re the move to a more secular state tyburn. I did read a commentary about this, now the fears are that Turkey will become a dictatorship, and align closer to Islamic Law (Sharia). It makes you think who Turkey will align themselves with now, and what effect this will have in the region - especially for the Kurds. Wonder what would happen to the secular Muslims in Turkey now. If nothing else, he sure has whipped up the emotions of the people. What's next?
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Jul 19, 2016 16:11:55 GMT 10
Firstly, I've been neglectful in one aspect specifically, so let me amend that and change that now, thank you for your positions.
- If I'm tracking this properly, we both agree [and I stated so] that it started with other factors we may not agree that some of those are due to the president being part of a minority version of said religion, and until now I thought we had both agreed that it was a war over the same religion currently, at least the evidence I presented from the UN [and there's plenty more] suggests so. So I'm confused why you keep bringing up how it started when it doesn't particularly matter if it's moved into something else.
Sure, I can agree that it was probably headed the right way before the Arab spring. I'm not that concerned with what was before but rather what is now.
I can agree that they're worse off. Your point also suggests that the West somehow run the countries in the Middle East with their 'barbaric laws and practice', more over surely you're not suggesting that the middle east has better laws and barbaric practices than the West? Obviously there's variations in both due to different countries, but you can hardly call whipping, stoning and throwing people who like the same gender off buildings to be better than the West. Finally let's look towards responsibility, surely that's squarely on the people fighting the war, aka the Syrians and what they're fighting over, aka which version of religion they prefer.
Truth is truth. There is no such thing as objective relativism, there is however mistaken and misunderstood positions and in which debate is an attempt to resolve for all parties. I'm always happy to be wrong. We have agreed on many things and as best as I can tell, the main thing we're disagreeing with is what you've misunderstood as my actual position, to which I have brought to your attention each time. I'm happy enough to make this my last retort on this topic, feel free to bring a final retort if you so wish and we'll call this debate done.
Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a fallacy where adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say.
ad hominem (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
I'll ignore that.
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remnantprep
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Post by remnantprep on Jul 19, 2016 16:45:56 GMT 10
Not suggesting the middle east has better laws etc than the west and yes I do believe the Mid East has been destabilised by the west! Was simply stating that Syria was becoming more enlightened before the uprising etc but by no means did I say that it was perfect and the issues there is not simply a matter of their enlightenment as there are many factors to sort out not just the religon thing. I cant actually workout what your position is Shiney! We will leave it there with me still confused, thinking I was just having a discussion rather than a debate! LOL And um sorry I didn't even realise I was doing this! LOL "Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a fallacy where adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say. ad hominem (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining." Thanks for the great discussion Shiney, I love hearing the viewpoints of others!
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Post by frontsight on Jul 19, 2016 23:38:33 GMT 10
Whilst watching youtube on how to recrown a muzzle, I found this, pretty much sums up on why we are in the s--t these day and age, doesn't just apply to the middle east, I think the general idea is universal
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Post by graynomad on Jul 20, 2016 10:28:38 GMT 10
... Am I the only one who thinks the Turkish coup may have been a black flag op; or at least, allowed to happen by those in the know? It does provide a very timely excuse for Erdogan to remove thousands of top military leaders, judges and other opposition leaders. The other thing that seems to have been overlooked is that the militray were coming out in order to ensure the country remains secular, whereas Erdogen is moving more and more towards strict Islam laws (veils being enforced in some areas etc). No, I agree, he has been rounding up too many people IMO, looks more like a purge of all those that are not on board, probably using a list that has been prepared for ages.
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