Tri-Polar
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Post by Tri-Polar on Jul 18, 2021 16:45:28 GMT 10
So i currently have a (basically) new petrol generator for back up power as i dont have a battery system, yet (long term goal so far). In the interest of pairing it with a battery system for charging if need be, i need a back up system when the grid is down, which happens enough to warrant a generator.
I currently have a 2.8Kw generator, which is more than enough. Its petrol. I was considering purchasing a diesel stationary motor and swapping them over.
So the reason for the need to ask opinions. The cost of a motor alone is near the price ($400-$500 cheaper), than a complete diesel generator.
Even though WAY over powered, i am looking at this generator. Looking for thoughts an input on swapping to diesel.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Jul 18, 2021 18:06:50 GMT 10
Whilst it is possible to change an engine over, as most newer generators don't use a bearing on the driven end of the alternator, relying on the engine end thrust bearing to carry the load, fitting a different engine could be difficult and chew up any savings. If the generator set is a 2 piece unit, with a separate alternator and engine, joined by a belt or external coupling, the job is easier. Perhaps it may be better strategy to buy a new diesel set, keeping the petrol one for a standby and converting it to run off producer gas (wood) or LP gas. Generators are like ammo, you cant have too many ! We have a main 12 kva water cooled diesel, and a 8.5 kva Honda that I've converted to run on LP and wood gas. 12 kva may sound big, but attach 200 amps at 48 volts of battery charging, 2 fridges, freezer, and other loads and it soon chews up the power. Add the 3.6 kw hot water booster element when we are to lazy to fire up the wood heater, and its running at full load, which is good for it. Also, you have diversified your energy source with all 3 major forms of fuels covered. Just a suggestion, put the money you would use for the new generator towards a solar system.
Drive A format failure, formatting drive C instead !
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Tri-Polar
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Post by Tri-Polar on Jul 18, 2021 18:28:41 GMT 10
I have no dramas making engines fit, its part of my hobby, but on a larger scale. I love to build things, even from other things, shouldnt take long to marry up any sort of motor to an existing generator, just curious on other peoples take on the current situation. Although i am a tight arse, so means i like to do it on the cheap, saving money wherever i can while i keep a certain level of quality.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Jul 18, 2021 18:41:04 GMT 10
I've been an Electrical and Communications Engineer for over 45 years, and also like to design and build equipment, especially stuff that's been discarded by others at the tip and so on. I design and construct my own ham gear, and was an accredited solar installer for 20 years.
I've seen the evidence for, I want to see different evidence.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 20, 2022 18:06:29 GMT 10
When looking for a generator, especially the Chinese offerings, before purchase, look up the web and find out if there is an Australian agent for the unit. Our 12 kva Chinese generator threw its water pump, and looking on the web I found the importer in WA. Less than $200 later, I have a replacement. The injector pump is leaking oil from its own oil supply through the bottom seal, into the engine. A new pump is available, ex stock for $1,500 if i cant find a suitable seal.
Today the 8.5 kva duel fuel Honda spat its dummy and had no output. A quick look in the junction box revealed a burnt connector. I thought they were not really good when I bought it, so I pried the wiring out of the melted plastic and hard wired it. All OK now.
Was thinking that I am glad I have a spare 5 kva Subaru generator set.
The Honda was big enough for us, but with 5 other power systems now here to support, is a bit small, hence the 12 Kva water cooled 4 cylinder diesel.
You know you own an old tractor when......Your only choice is to make the part yourself, or find a parts tractor.
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Post by SA Hunter on May 22, 2022 20:33:02 GMT 10
I have a 10kva, but thinking of getting another smaller one s a back up in case it dies on me.
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bug
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Post by bug on May 23, 2022 9:12:39 GMT 10
Same situation here TP. I stuck with petrol due to not wanting to have another type of fuel to store. But if you have a diesel or electric car, then going for a diesel genny would make sense. I was disappointed to find that my solar panels will not work when I'm off grid running the diesel. This should change when I get a battery.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 23, 2022 9:23:58 GMT 10
The preppers cry...backup....backup.....backup, you cant have too many backup systems or gear.
You know you own an old tractor when.....The local tractor parts place suggests to customers that they contact you for bits.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 23, 2022 10:07:01 GMT 10
The grid connected solar system has to drop off, by law, when the grid is down. It also must not be allowed to feed power back into the grid until its been stable for at least 1 minute, and must drop off grid within 10 ms, (1 cycle) upon grid failure.
You solar system may cause damage to the generator if it feeds back into it, and a generator output probably isn't stable enough for the solar to synchronize with it anyway.
That said, 30 years ago we were designing and installing grid interactive systems with battery's that kept it running when the grid failed and fed excess power to the grid when connected. We even did a couple of mobile homes that would feed power back into the grid when connected to it if there was excess solar available.These operated under a special permit, and as far as I am aware, one is still cruising around Australia.
You know you own an old tractor when......A neighbor calls you about an unusual tool, and you loan them your spare.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 23, 2022 10:22:16 GMT 10
As for fuel, a petrol generator can be run on LPG, the conversion is quite easy and my 8.5 kva honda is duel fuel, petrol and Gas. A diesel can also be converted but still needs pilot injection of fuel to fire the gas.
A petrol generator, or motor can also run on wood gas, which you can make yourself. Just don't expect the same power available as when running on petrol, LP gas is about 90%, whilst wood gas could be down to less than 60%.
I converted my old Triton ute to duel fuel over 20 years ago, and it still fires up more easily on lp gas than petrol, which tends to evaporate from the carby because its now our on farm fire truck and rarely gets used. (I have a filling adapter from a 20 lb BBQ bottle).
When my gasifier was operational, I even drove around in it using wood gas, but the acceleration was woeful, and the timing needed to be advanced beyond what was available on the distributor (as wood or producer gas is very slow burning).
Having all 3 major fuels covered in generation is a good prepper strategy, even if the other generator is not as powerful. Perhaps the different fuels will be available at different times, or rationed in the future. It certainly isn't gong to get any cheaper, but the availability may be an issue soon as well.
You know you own an old tractor when......Your wife knows the model, weight, HP rating, and features of every tractor on the way to town.
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bug
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Post by bug on May 23, 2022 13:20:26 GMT 10
I only ever run the genny off-grid. Even if it could feed into the grid, you wouldn't want it to. More of a test to see if the PV inverter could sync to it. It couldn't. That said, the inverter is a pretty good one. We have a lot of power 'blinks' and it always deals with them. I got a good one though rather than the cheap rubbish you often see advertised. A battery is next, though I may ditch that idea if the incoming government makes EVs cheaper. The $ per/kwh of an EV isn't much different from that of a home battery. The car itself is almost free from that perspective.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 23, 2022 14:47:35 GMT 10
When making a different engine fit on a generator, make sure you align the center bearing perfectly. All modern sets don't have a bearing on the drive end of the alternator and rely on the engine bearing. Some don't even have a non drive end bearing either, supporting the whole shaft on the engine output shaft bearing. Not good design.
Its somewhat easier if the alternator is belt driven. Also, don't overlook an older DC generator, such as the motor driven welding dc sets of old. Add a large power diode to prevent reverse current from the battery feeding into the generator, and the output power is adjustable by the field current controls. A dc generator will be more efficient at charging battery's than an alternator and battery charger.
Maybe its time to revisit a steam engine, or even a large Stirling type to drive a generator of some type.
Pieltier devices can also generate electricity from waste heat. An old solid state fridge cooler can generate a few amps at 12 volts from heat applied to the heat sinks rear. Constant heat cycling will crack the ceramic and ruin the unit after a while though.
Iron and copper wires twisted together form a thermocouple that can generate a small voltage.I have an article from a old Popular Mechanics or science magazine that describes running a small transistor radio from a candle using a homemade thermopile. (an array of thermocouples).
Nowadays, solar has taken center stage, but its not an easy technology to duplicate at home.
You know you own an old tractor when.....You marvel at enraged yuppies tailgating a large tractor, unaware that 18 mph on a tractor is over 100 mph in a Volvo.
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Tim Horton
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Post by Tim Horton on May 30, 2022 5:05:41 GMT 10
Without going out to look we keep a cheap, dual fuel, 3500W (??) portable generator.. It is easy for us to use, dependable and adequate for our needs so far..
The one concern I would have with a diesel powered generator is, like mentioned, whos motor is in it..?? If I had the need for the extra power, I would default with a known motor.. Kubota, Yanmar (JD)... Something repairable local.. Even some larger welding supply dealers can work on diesel motors in there portable welders..
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 30, 2022 8:11:57 GMT 10
Our main 12 kva water cooled diesel is of chinese manufacture. The water pump bearing failed and I started looking for a replacement. Found it in China, but also found an Australian agent, who had it in stock, brand new on the shelf, for about the same price as from China. With 1 week delivery, instead of 10 weeks as quoted from China. Looked up other common parts that may be needed, injector pump, off the shelf $1.5 K, My injector pump had an issue with oil (it has its own little dipstick and oil resovour in it ) leaking into the sump, overfilling the sump. Also, the lift pump that pumps diesel from the 100 liter tank in the base, would lose its prime when sitting for a few days. Took it to the local diesel place, and $550 later all fixed. Apparently it uses standard parts. I don't know whose engine they copied, but they obviously didn't change much.
I reasoned that I only paid $700 for the generator when I bought it from some people who were moving from the area, , 10 years ago, so no great loss.
The electric stop solenoid doesn't work as its burned out, so a piece of fencing wire works well enough to pull on the stop lever, the low oil and over temperature black box doesn't work, but ive fitted an external oil pressure gauge and had the radiator re cored locally, and the alternator that charges the battery is kaput, but as it has a 80 watt solar panel screwed to the sound proofed enclosure lid and connected to it to keep the battery charged, and a 3 amp trickle charger connected to the 240 v output, that's not an issue either.
This marks a distinct change from other Chinese stuffs I have bought that spares just were not obtainable, even in China.
So I guess the lesson here is not to be afraid of buying a Chinese set, just make sure that parts are available, and even buy a spare set of gaskets etc when you buy the set.
I may not always be perfect, but I am always right !
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Post by Joey on May 30, 2022 17:45:46 GMT 10
What is a good calculator to use when trying to look at the appropriate KW size jenny you would need as a backup power supply to keep the essentials going during a blackout? I've just got a 3.5kva which I figure is enough to keep the fridge and deep freezer going during an extended blackout which we seem to get at least every once every 2-3yrs in cyclone season up here
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mwat
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Post by mwat on May 30, 2022 18:51:50 GMT 10
Ok, here we go. First a little maths.
Kva vs kw. 3.5 kva is not necessarily 3.5 kw. At a power factor of 1, it is (pure resistance), but at a typical power factor of 0.8, 3.5 kva is only 2.8 kw, or 2,800 watts. At 230 volts, our mains voltage, this is about 12 amps. Hence the reason your generator wont run the load u thought it would. Power factor is the cosine of the phase difference betwen the voltage and current, and can be positive with a capacitive load, or more usually, negative with an inductive load.
The other generator rating that is seldom given is the surge, or starting rating. A typical 3.5 kva honda should get away a 2.5 or even 3 kw motor, maybe a bit bigger if it starts on no or light load. By the way, welders are a bad load, especially a stick type as it is a very heavy pulse load and can rip a winding out of the slots of the alternator.
3 phase tends to be a bit more efficient.
The surge, or starting rating is a combination of the response time of the engine govener, the amount of iron and copper in the windings of the alternator and the mass of the flywheel. Chinese types tend to be light on with all of the above, hence the reason for poor performance when under difficult loads.
Proven designs, from major manufactures, like Honda, Suberoo and so on will always out perform the Chinese copies. That said, if your duty is not high, then the imports can give good service.
3.5 is probably the minimum to look at, they are reasonably economical and can run a stick welder at a pinch, or our 30 year old Honda 3.5 can anyway.
Something like a 500 watt or 1 kw inverter type is good for battery charging farm vehicles in the paddock, although screwing a solar panel to the bonnet of the tractor is better long term solution.
Daddy, what does formatting drive C mean ?
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bushdoc2
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Post by bushdoc2 on May 30, 2022 21:48:00 GMT 10
So I guess the lesson here is not to be afraid of buying a Chinese set, just make sure that parts are available, and even buy a spare set of gaskets etc when you buy the set. The lesson is: either get something reliable or be able to fix it. Preferably both.
As for genny size needed, depends on the running load vs starting load. I had a very small genny which would fail when an angle grinder was used, but if the grinder was bump-started (on-off-onnnn) it would run ok.
Possible to get 'soft start' loads, eg. certain fridges.
If in doubt, better to get a bigger genny which can handle the load.
And don't let sheeple visitors bring appliances, such as toasters or hair dryers if you are on solar...
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 31, 2022 9:13:42 GMT 10
Something went wrong when I logged in from my tablet whilst on the road yesterday. Here it is again with the spelling mistakes fixed !
Ok, here we go. First a little maths.
Kva vs kw. 3.5 kva is not necessarily 3.5 kw. At a power factor of 1, it is (pure resistance), but at a typical power factor of 0.8, 3.5 kva is only 2.8 kw, or 2,800 watts. At 230 volts, our mains voltage, this is about 12 amps. Hence the reason your generator wont run the load u thought it would. Power factor is the cosine of the phase difference between the voltage and current, and can be positive with a capacitive load, or more usually, negative with an inductive load.
The other generator rating that is seldom given is the surge, or starting rating. A typical 3.5 kva Honda should get away a 2.5 or even 3 kw motor, maybe a bit bigger if it starts on no or light load. By the way, welders are a bad load, especially a stick type as it is a very heavy pulse load and can rip a winding out of the slots of the alternator.
3 phase tends to be a bit more efficient.
The surge, or starting rating is a combination of the response time of the engine governor, the amount of iron and copper in the windings of the alternator and the mass of the flywheel. Chinese types tend to be light on with all of the above, hence the reason for poor performance when under difficult loads.
That said, Mr Honda hasn't quite got the materials engineering right either. Our 8.5 Kva has broken several alternator cooling fans. Its because there is a harmonic vibration set up inside the alternator when charging the battery's from the 5 kva 48 volt main inverter/charger. It does a synchronized charge and I suspect the power factor correction isn't quite in phase with the alternator winding arrangement, giving rise to destructive internal vibrations that break the fans mounting off. I keep several spares on the wall of the shed adjacent to the generator, and can change it out in about a hour or so. I now tend to use the 200 amp, 48 volt external charger that I made as a no break power supply. Being a conventional transformer/rectifier type of design, any harmonics are limited to the 3rd and 5th, so pose no danger to the alternator in relation to harmonic vibration. The generator chews more fuel running the big charger, but charges quicker. Also, when the battery's are nearing full charge, I have to keep an eye on the voltage as it can rise very quickly and possibly overcharge the battery's, as its not regulated in any way. The inverter/charger is fully regulated and is no issue with overcharging battery's.
Proven designs, from major manufactures, like Honda, Subaru and so on will always out perform the Chinese copies. That said, if your duty is not high, then the imports can give good service. Was on the road yesterday and used the tablet. For some reason the login got screwed up.
3.5kva is probably the minimum to look at, they are reasonably economical and can run a stick welder at a pinch, or our 30 year old Honda 3.5kva can anyway.
Something like a 500 watt or 1 kw inverter type is good for battery charging farm vehicles in the paddock, although screwing a solar panel to the bonnet of the tractor is better long term solution.
Daddy, what does formatting drive C mean ?
Soft starters are available in kit form from the likes of Jaycar and so on. Very large motors are started using various means to limit the enormous inrush currents. Auto transformer, resistance type starters, star-delta starting and so on. Most of these methods have been replaced by the electronic soft starter that uses a semi conductor, or many semi conductor devices, to slowly ramp up the voltage, thereby controlling the current input to the device. And on really, really big motors, such as in steel plants, pilot motors are used, or used to be used, to start the main motor spinning before applying full power. Thats basically what u are doing in giving the grinder a spin before switching it on.
The whole science of starting big motors, or big loads, from the grid or on site generation is a very interesting topic.
I only counted 100 dalmatians.......
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on May 31, 2022 19:40:54 GMT 10
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bug
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Post by bug on Jun 1, 2022 13:32:54 GMT 10
Starting current it the one that catches most people out. Usually need 3x capacity. Got a fridge with a 700W compressor? You need a 2kVA minimum generator. In reality it's a 3kVA as there will always be other loads to add.
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