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Post by Stealth on Aug 5, 2022 18:35:21 GMT 10
So we're getting a 9.9kw array with a 10kw battery for storage installed onto the new property in WA and I've been reading about the new requirement to have a main switch circuit breaker installed on the property as part of the install.
I've read that this leads to problems for anyone that wants to use two or more high draw items at once because it the breaker will trip and stop draw. You then have to re-set everything and can only use one high draw item at once. I'm a bit frustrated by this, because it's likely that we'll want to do things like use our air conditioning at the same time as boiling the kettle while using the microwave and running 6 separate PCs (we're a WFH family with kids lol).
The way this reads to me, it's the government's way of moving towards having control of how much of your solar's intake you can use in one go so that they can farm out the excess power generated to office buildings and the like which don't have solar. I understand if this was just using house's excess power, but it's intentionally preventing you from drawing on your full capacity at one time. If I need to use the amount I'm generating I should be bloody able to! I'm spending bulk dollars on putting it on!
Any way my question for long time players is, how hard is it to remove a main switch circuit breaker once installed, and can you hire an average sparky to do it safely for you. I'm not going to uninstall something like that myself, I don't have the skills or understanding to do it safely. But I'll sure as hell pay someone to do it if I can get away with it!
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tactile
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Post by tactile on Aug 5, 2022 19:03:47 GMT 10
It will all depend on the quality and specs of your inverter. Do you know what sort of inverter you are going with?
I cant see how a mains circuit breaker will effect your usage...
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Aug 5, 2022 19:30:05 GMT 10
My understanding is an 'average sparky' isn't permitted to work on grid connect solar. You need a specially accredited one, so the option of getting creative might be restricted.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Aug 6, 2022 10:06:32 GMT 10
The main switch/circuit breaker could be just a RCD/MCB for earth leakage protection, not being familiar with WA rules. In NSW u need to be able to isolate the solar from the grid and the array/battery's, usually with an off load isolation combination fuse/switch. There is talk about mandatory earth leakage automatic protection, but as far as I am aware, it only applies to the solar array at present. There should be no issue getting a ordinary (if any of us are !!) sparky to install a dedicated circuit to power your essential appliances, fridge, water pump, freezer etc, from the mains. The limitation may be put on what the inverter can supply, ie:its maximum rating, and that will depend on the solar array rating as well. U say a 9.9 kw array, but is that peak power, or averaged over the whole day. That makes a lot of difference. Standard size inverter units are around 5 kva, or about 20 amps at 240 v, so in full sun, with an array that can deliver at least 5 kw, and a full battery, you should be able to draw 5 kva from the system, even in bad weather as the battery's will supply the extra the sun cant provide, for a while....... Being totally off grid, our solar array is 12 kw continuous, giving over 60 kwh/day, charging a 2,600 amp hr 48 volt battery (124 kwh). Yes, that's over 250 amps DC in full sun, and a 5 kva inverter/charger (that can charge the battery's from a generator), runs everything, all at once, the hot water, pumps, fridges, freezers etc, no issues with tripping out. A standby 200 amp DC charger for 'black start' is also installed. The system you have described should be able to as well, with appropriately sized circuit breakers and cascading calculations for sub circuits, safely. The Govt does want to control when u supply (export) power and when, so it can regulate the power grid when there is too much power coming in. There has been numerous stories in the news re people who have noticed their solar is not exporting on a sunny day. Sneaky little s..ts the Govt is.
Solution........
GET TOTALLY OFF THE GRID,
Give them the finger, then you can do it all with no Govt jerks interfering. A 10 kwh battery is probably a bit small for no power issues in bad weather, but just get another battery, and switch off from the grid, totally for ever, no more Govt interference with a basic need, electric. If it worry's you, get a small generator, build a gasifier and run it from wood, sticking another finger up at the oil companies as well. The fact of the matter is....will anyone else believe you ? |
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bug
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Post by bug on Aug 6, 2022 12:20:02 GMT 10
I don't understand the logic behind that. When we put ours on, it sits on the same bus as several of the load circuits. This causes the currents to subtract, not add.
Your place will have a single MCB that all the other CBs sit behind anyway, so I don't see any change here?
The only way I could see this as being a problem is that if you had an undersized MCB to begin with. That problem would not be affected at all by the solar.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Aug 6, 2022 13:13:38 GMT 10
Thats what I was explaining above, its called discrimination, or splitting of circuits up so that the circuit breakers get smaller in current as the loads decrease due to more parallel paths as you travel down the circuit.
The future is like the present, only longer....
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bug
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Post by bug on Aug 6, 2022 15:18:21 GMT 10
Was responding to the original one, not yours MWT.
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Post by Stealth on Aug 6, 2022 15:31:25 GMT 10
Thanks for all the useful info so far! 
This is the article that has me a little concerned, although I'm not sure whether or not it will apply to us. We're looking at getting Trina Vertex S+ panels, with a 5kw Huawei inverter and a Huawei Luna2000 10kw battery. We considered getting another system purely because we'd prefer avoid Chinese manufactured products if possible but unfortunately most of the options we found were just out of our price range for our requirements. We had to be pragmatic. |
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Aug 6, 2022 16:01:03 GMT 10
OK, here we go. This is a guide for those considering off grid solar.
Just ordered parts for another power system for my sister here. System number 6 !!
9 off Trina tier 1, 400 watt panels, giving 3.6 kw, or about 20 kWh/day assuming around 6 hours full sun. They are laminates, so need mountings as they don't have a aluminum surround, as most panels don't have anyway now.
A 24 volt, 400 amp hour (9.6 kWh), lithium battery bank, in a stainless steel enclosure, complete with a battery management system (BMS). Life is supposed to be over 3,000 (nearly 10 years), cycles to 100% and 8,000 cycles to 20%, or 21 years. Also wangled an extended warranty, along with free delivery from QLD.
A 3.5 kw, 24 volt to 240 volt inverter with a 100 amp charger, transfer switch etc.
To keep the solar under control, a Victron 150/100 MPPT regulator, yes I know its only rated at 100 amps and 3.6 kw is over 120 amps, but that's in full sun and by the time the sun gets to that power level, the battery's should be fairly well charged, and the Victron will current limit itself to a safe level anyway.
The panels will be arranged in 3 groups of 3 in series, giving an open circuit voltage of around 135 volts dc.
Circuit breakers will be Clipsal, as these are rated nameplate up to 150 volts dc in double pole configuration and much cheaper than 'proper' dc breakers.
Battery isolation will be via a standard 160 amp triple pole off load isolation switch.
Metering will be kept very simple with a 240 v KWH meter, and the inbuilt metering on the regulator.
Costs...battery's $ 5,600 (Ive actually ordered 2 sets, one to replace a failing 2nd hand lead acid set. I don't recommend you get so called, good used standby battery's as one set has failed after a few years).
Solar panels, about $300 each, plus framing.
Regulator, around $1,200 plus a display at $70.
Inverter, new price around $4,000, but I have one spare so it didn't need to be purchased.
Cable, conduit, lugs, circuit breakers etc will add another $500 odd to the price, and we will install it all in 2 or 3 days, maybe 4 if the weather is crook.
Thats about $16k, plus install, which I can do myself as I am an accredited solar installer as well as an licensed electrician.
Whilst not the cheapest, Rainbow Power Company are good to deal with, so its gonna be a trip to Nimbin during the week, always an interesting place to visit anyway !
Then the radio room system gets an upgrade, with 3 off 250 watt panels, that are at present on my sisters temporary 12 volt system, with an old Rainbow sine 300 watt inverter and 30 amp battery charger, and another Victron 150/100 MPPT regulator.
At that, we should be all systems go.
The future isn't what it used to be.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Aug 6, 2022 16:06:30 GMT 10
Thanks for all the useful info so far!
This is the article that has me a little concerned, although I'm not sure whether or not it will apply to us. We're looking at getting Trina Vertex S+ panels, with a 5kw Huawei inverter and a Huawei Luna2000 10kw battery. We considered getting another system purely because we'd prefer avoid Chinese manufactured products if possible but unfortunately most of the options we found were just out of our price range for our requirements. We had to be pragmatic. Yup, to ere is human, to really screw things up requires Government involvement.
But, these requirements shouldn't apply to off grid, so once again....GO OFF GRID people. Its probably not possible in the city, so MOVE.....
If enough people vote with their checkbooks, the powers that be must listen or lose lots of customers and hence income.
The heart is wiser than the intellect...
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Post by Stealth on Aug 6, 2022 16:57:53 GMT 10
Is that the sound of you offering to pay out our mortgage and buy a property to go off grid on?! How generous of you! 🤣😂
We're already moving. That's why we're having solar installed. Going off-grid entirely is the ultimate dream, but I suspect my kids feel the same way about eating so we're living within our means. If I had a solar installer available to do the work for free could possibly manage a system that would support full off grid (and again, keep in mind, family of five with WFH parents and very power-hungry usage) but not when we have to pay for labour as well. Unfortunately the simplest solution is not the possible one.
Fingers crossed it will be in just a few short years, but for now? We're just going to make do with the best set up we can manage just in case prices for electricity start going the way they are over East.
I heard rumours that it's impossible to be removed entirely from the grid in WA if you've already been connected to street power. They can 'pause' your account if you're going away on holiday for a long period but they'll never remove your name from the account to the address. So until we buy our forever home in 10-15 years we have to manage as best we can. But we're definitely planning to be fully off grid when we do buy our forever home. Even if it costs as much as being on-grid in the long term, we'll be self-sufficient and that's something I'm really looking forward to!
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Aug 6, 2022 17:38:50 GMT 10
Being off grid is not easy, nor is it necessarily as cheap as on grid, but....being your own Lord and master of your destiny is worth every cent. In NSW, its not easy to disconnect from the grid either, especially if the property has or was connected at some stage, but, its possible. The issue over here is not the Electric company, but local Councils. They can declare your house uninhabitable if the electric isn't connected. These days I think they would have a hard time proving that in court, but knowing how persistent Govt dudes are who knows how much resources they would throw at you. Rural properties are different, especially if there is no electric lines within a few km. They wouldn't be game to tackle you as it would cost them a small fortune to connect you, money they would never get back. None of our properties have ever been connected to the grid, Ive never had an electric account in my name either. Our first one used a direct generation 240 v hydro turbine that I constructed, now its solar, as water isn't just lying about here like it is on the coast !! Good to see you are aiming for energy independence as well as food independence. I think its all part of the package of prepping, along with comms, weapons, and so on.
If I was in WA I would certainly help you in the endevour to be free from at least one bill.
The man who never makes mistakes must get tired of doing nothing !! |
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bug
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Post by bug on Aug 6, 2022 18:42:13 GMT 10
Thanks for all the useful info so far!
This is the article that has me a little concerned, although I'm not sure whether or not it will apply to us. We're looking at getting Trina Vertex S+ panels, with a 5kw Huawei inverter and a Huawei Luna2000 10kw battery. We considered getting another system purely because we'd prefer avoid Chinese manufactured products if possible but unfortunately most of the options we found were just out of our price range for our requirements. We had to be pragmatic. It's as I guessed. Nothing to do with solar and everything to do with an MCB undersized for the load that the resident wants to run. I'm guessing that prior to getting solar they had fuses, not an MCB and they were rated higher than 63A. Now that their board is being worked on, the new rules apply and they have a limit applied that they didn't before. Same thing would happen if they wanted to replace an old board with a new one regardless if the reason for that was that they were adding solar, a pool pump or anything else that needs a new CB. |
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Post by Stealth on Aug 7, 2022 8:33:09 GMT 10
Absolutely. It's frustrating as heck because even now, Perth and 'Major towns' are given 63A as their load limit. But if you're regional or rural, you only get 32A. If you're upgrading your system in regional or rural they'll also take you from your previous set up to being on an MCB as well. But not in the city or major towns.
I'm going to write an email to whoever my local member is. And probably a few more. It's ridiculous that they assume that you'll use less power the further our that you are. Personally I think it's part of the plan to get us to net zero. An admirable goal in my opinion. But if they're limiting people to reduce draw so that they can siphon off what's not being used for businesses and factories that can't have solar for whatever reason... That's a bit trash.
I know that there's some concern about overloading the system in the middle of summer. Apparently there were a few times where there was so much overflow that it forced some coal-fired generators to go offline to prevent a blowout. What. A. Shame. Let 'em turn off for a bit so the money-hungry fat cats that own them can sweat for a bit. Only I'm sure there's a few too many pollies that are scared of THAT situation!
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bug
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Post by bug on Aug 7, 2022 10:54:02 GMT 10
32A is a joke. That's what they do in Italy because their distribution system is also a joke. VERY surprised to find out about this in WA. Here in Vic it's 100A. My air conditioner alone would go over that if the hot water system kicked in.
The crap thing is that in rural areas, going three phase to reduce this problem isn't always an option. Every sparky in rural WA is going to be putting in a meter bypass.
With domestic meter readers all being sacked a few years ago, the chances of getting caught are almost zero.
Looks like the only legal way around it is with a battery, or as MWT says, tell them to shove it and go completely off grid.
Customers going off grid is a very real and catastrophic threat to electricity distributors. They are left with massive amounts of stranded assets when this happens.
If it's a plan for 'net zero', then that is even more idiocy. Renewables work best when spread over the maximum possible area. With only one major city on the WA grid, they must have as much rural load and generation as possible. It's interesting that all the mining companies are giving the WA grid the middle finger. Even those close to the grid don't connect to it, and set up their own microgrids, usually including renewables.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Aug 7, 2022 11:41:29 GMT 10
Mining companies give the grid the middle finger cause its too expensive to run HV (11 KV and above) lines to their workings, that move every few years anyway, then have to pay for the power. Easier to generate our own from diesel, get the rebates etc and stick the network.
Yes, good comment re the network costs and if people disconnect, then a lot of investment is wasted and not making money for them.
Perhaps the reduction in power allowance is part of the plan to reduce the grid capacity so to offset the people going off grid ?
I suppose we have a micro grid here, as there are interties to the various systems to enable power flows to be altered in case of a breakdown.
Also, if off grid, u need backups, just like for food etc. Either spare equipment, like inverters and regulators and panels, or generator and some way of powering it.
The grid is just another way of control, like food, fuel, communications and so on, is going to be.
The Irish ignore anything they can't drink or punch....
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tactile
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Post by tactile on Aug 7, 2022 12:00:05 GMT 10
My only advice would be take a long, hard look at those inverters you are looking at Stealth...make sure they can supply the peak current that you need, a lot of cheap stuff on the market cant or they are a bit optimistic in their specs.
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Post by Stealth on Aug 7, 2022 15:45:23 GMT 10
My only advice would be take a long, hard look at those inverters you are looking at Stealth...make sure they can supply the peak current that you need, a lot of cheap stuff on the market cant or they are a bit optimistic in their specs. Thanks for the tip tactile, sounds like I've got a bit of investigating to do. It's hard when you don't have any working knowledge of this kind of thing so I appreciate everyone chiming in It'll certainly be interesting to see what the installer says in his reply. It's certainly crappy to find out that the average consumer that doesn't have access to a brains trust like you lot might very easily get swindled. At least now I have some idea on what questions to ask. Had it not being for being prep-minded, I would never even have found that article (and others) in the first place. To have people who're experienced to ask questions of is invaluable so we really appreciate it! |
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tactile
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Post by tactile on Aug 7, 2022 16:04:36 GMT 10
Problem is that most of the deals that are around these days are bundles where companies shop around for bulk deals on inverters, panels & other components. The name brands usually don't partake in these deals. So everyone piles in with crap components.
My view is if you can't afford the good stuff (SMA, Selectronic) save up so you can, or finance it. I used to work for Selectronics and I can assure you they are exceptionally robust and can supply currents waaaaay over their ratings. Very expensive though...
I'd also try and use a local installer that just does this work. Someone who knows how to setup the inverters properly because they have heaps of settings that can be used to your advantage in regards to directing the power you generate.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Aug 7, 2022 17:09:13 GMT 10
Small industry Tactile.......I knew everyone who worked for Selectronics in the early days as well. Had many industry conferences.
SEA was another Australian company that's dissapeared, and our main 5kva inverter/charger is an SEA type.
Trace made top shelf gear, both inverters/grid interactive gear and regulators, but lost it when outsourced from USA to Korea. I remember upgrading many of their stand alone inverters to grid interactive/battery types by changing out 8 odd EPROM chips.
Do you remember Integral Environmental Energies ? and Geoff from Uladulla ?
Heady days, doing things that no one had ever done before, like connecting private power generation to the Public Grid. How to do it ? I wrote the first grid connect standard over 40 years ago, 2 pages is all it was. Now its a legislative book 150 pages long !
The moving cat sheds, and having shed, moves on.....
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