tactile
Senior Member
Posts: 1,069
Likes: 483
|
Post by tactile on Dec 26, 2022 11:42:00 GMT 10
As requested in the thread "Where are you seeing shortages" ...things are starting to move off topic and seeing no one else has done it, here we are...
I'll kick it off with MWT's question on where the moneys coming from for the new infrastructure? The answer is multinationals. There is no shortage of money in the market right now because global energy companies realise that the big money is getting in early and owning the infrastructure. Once you build it and pay for it (via access to global financing institutions) you get money for jam.
And in regards to distribution, don't discount the high voltage DC stuff that we use between Tasmania and Vic. It's a lot cheaper to implement now and the technology has matured a lot since it was constructed there.
|
|
malewithatail
VIP Member
Posts: 4,000 
Likes: 1,384
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
|
Post by malewithatail on Dec 26, 2022 12:41:59 GMT 10
The money is being burnt off in the 'war'.
HV DC is a very efficient method of transmission, in fact, the original Edison power systems were dc distribution. No issues with inductance or impedance, only restive and insulation losses.
I have not yet begun to procrastinate.
|
|
tactile
Senior Member
Posts: 1,069
Likes: 483
|
Post by tactile on Dec 26, 2022 13:29:42 GMT 10
The money is being burnt off in the 'war'. It hasn't even slowed the Europeans investments here...if anything they have stepped it up. They have accepted that energy is going to cost them more...they just want access to it.
A good example is French energy giant Engie's involvement in hydrogen here...
|
|
tactile
Senior Member
Posts: 1,069
Likes: 483
|
Post by tactile on Dec 26, 2022 14:58:11 GMT 10
|
|
norseman
VIP Member
Posts: 2,238
Likes: 1,888
|
Post by norseman on Dec 27, 2022 4:45:07 GMT 10
Melbourne is already starting to restrict car use in the CBD. Encouraging public transport, cycling & good old walking - remember that?! The accelerating death of a city! |
|
tactile
Senior Member
Posts: 1,069
Likes: 483
|
Post by tactile on Dec 27, 2022 7:57:39 GMT 10
Melbourne is already starting to restrict car use in the CBD. Encouraging public transport, cycling & good old walking - remember that?! The accelerating death of a city! This transition has been going on for 20 years...and it depends on your idea of death I guess but in my experience it's been good for the city. If the CBD didn't have the tram network then I suggest it might of turned out different. The inner cities population has exploded in this time - lots of students and city professionals and this new system caters for them, most have no need for a car, so its worked well.
Suburban people have been catered for with their malls so there is not much need for them to travel into the CBD anyway. Those that have to/want to work in the CBD have good public transport networks to get in here...sucks driving into the city and always has so that's what most use.
A lot of European cities have banned cars altogether in their CBDs (decades ago now) and it has worked out OK for them. I think its a good thing as long as the infrastructure is there to enable people to still get around. I don't think it would work in Sydney for example.
|
|
bug
Senior Member
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by bug on Dec 28, 2022 9:33:59 GMT 10
The biggest problem that Australia has with that, is that walkable neighbourhoods are not legal to build in most areas. The only exception would be the inner city, and who wants to raise a family there... Practically every planning code enshrines housing only developments with almost no local employment or shops that are within walking distance of all residents. The streets are meandering and horrible for busses. This leads to every house having two cars. Restricting cars (with exceptions for trades and deliveries) in the CBD is a good move. It needs to be augmented by planning and transport changes in the burbs too or it won't achieve its goal. What this has led to in many countries, is the older walkable neighbourhoods are vastly more expensive than the 'copy and paste' suburban housing developments, because that's what people want, and none of it is getting built anymore. |
|
bug
Senior Member
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by bug on Dec 28, 2022 9:38:47 GMT 10
The money is being burnt off in the 'war'. HV DC is a very efficient method of transmission, in fact, the original Edison power systems were dc distribution. No issues with inductance or impedance, only restive and insulation losses. I have not yet begun to procrastinate. Yep. DC is used for almost all long-distance underground cables now (and where it isn't, very forseeable problems ensue). It's much more efficient than AC. Due to cable capacitance, AC does not work well after about 100kM. But DC can go 1000kM or further if needed. The problem was always the converters at either end. They weren't practical in the past, but that problem is now largely solved. |
|
bug
Senior Member
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by bug on Dec 28, 2022 9:54:15 GMT 10
Moving over from the shortage thread:
Dec 25, 2022 20:05:38 GMT 11 malewithatail said:
Talking about a voltage level is immaterial, its the power or current the transmission system can deliver that's important. And 500 Kv is now the standard for HV transmission worldwide.
500kV is around $2M per km. A single circuit is generally run at around 1GW. They can be run higher, but generally aren't for network stability purposes. In a nutshell, as they are connected to lines of much lower rating, they can't be run at full power in-case there is a fault with them. Australia does not have an interconnected 500kV system. There are two isolated sections. One goes from Loy Yang to Portland in Vic. The other is a smaller section west of the blue mountains in NSW. There are plans underway to link them.
|
|
tactile
Senior Member
Posts: 1,069
Likes: 483
|
Post by tactile on Dec 28, 2022 10:11:12 GMT 10
...the only exception would be the inner city, and who wants to raise a family there... Most of Asia...which a lot of the population here is. There are a lot of families where I live, times change, people change. I grew up on a farm but I don't think it was any better or worse than the inner city, just different. A lot of the skills I learnt on a farm are useless here, and visa versa. But the opportunities here are far greater.
|
|
malewithatail
VIP Member
Posts: 4,000
Likes: 1,384
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
|
Post by malewithatail on Dec 28, 2022 12:07:07 GMT 10
Many years ago, when I qualified for my 500 KV switching ticket, the prediction was for an interconnected network at 500 kv from NSW to WA. Still waiting.
It has to come with the drive to renewables.
Cover the desert with panels ? Think of what the enviro Nazis would do to that proposal !
I do what I want when I want, as long as my wife says it OK.
|
|
bug
Senior Member
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by bug on Dec 28, 2022 14:20:26 GMT 10
Interestingly, the only major party with a plan to put join the SWIS and the NEM are the Greens. They'd do it with HVDC too. Interestingly, we're more likely to connect to Singapore than WA in the near future. The tiny NT grid will hang off the immense cable system that will go in connecting whichever project goes ahead first to Singapore. With the Mt Isa grid connecting into the NEM shortly, it makes a lot of sense to extend that cable into the NEM.
|
|
malewithatail
VIP Member
Posts: 4,000
Likes: 1,384
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
|
Post by malewithatail on Dec 28, 2022 16:11:06 GMT 10
It all becomes relatively easy with semiconductors that exist now. Indeed, if they were around when the grid was being developed, I'm sure we would have ended up with HV DC distribution.
I come from a era when if you wanted some DC in industry, you needed a bloody great 3 or 6 phase AC motor/flywheel arrangement, connected to equally huge DC generators, with rotating commutators and brushes to continually wear out. And even back then, with DC it was far easier to get fine control over than saturated reactors, etc on AC.
You youngster Engineers just don't know how lucky you are !!
The real pandemic is how stupid everyone is.
|
|
tactile
Senior Member
Posts: 1,069
Likes: 483
|
Post by tactile on Jan 5, 2023 5:49:42 GMT 10
|
|
tactile
Senior Member
Posts: 1,069
Likes: 483
|
Post by tactile on Jan 8, 2023 12:11:38 GMT 10
|
|
|
|
Post by ausprep130 on Jan 10, 2023 9:05:04 GMT 10
The biggest problem that Australia has with that, is that walkable neighbourhoods are not legal to build in most areas. The only exception would be the inner city, and who wants to raise a family there... Practically every planning code enshrines housing only developments with almost no local employment or shops that are within walking distance of all residents. The streets are meandering and horrible for busses. This leads to every house having two cars. Restricting cars (with exceptions for trades and deliveries) in the CBD is a good move. It needs to be augmented by planning and transport changes in the burbs too or it won't achieve its goal. What this has led to in many countries, is the older walkable neighbourhoods are vastly more expensive than the 'copy and paste' suburban housing developments, because that's what people want, and none of it is getting built anymore. It's easier and more profitable for developers to build new suburbs around shopping centres, and they leave public transport to the local council or state government to worry about which is sometimes a good thing but often a bad thing as bus routes are poorly thought out/implemented. |
|
bug
Senior Member
Posts: 2,325
Likes: 1,937
|
Post by bug on Jan 10, 2023 14:16:55 GMT 10
Yup that's exactly what happens.
|
|
Tim Horton
Senior Member
Posts: 1,951
Likes: 2,003
|
Post by Tim Horton on Jan 13, 2023 3:53:09 GMT 10
in many countries, is the older walkable neighbourhoods are vastly more expensive than the 'copy and paste' suburban housing developments, because that's what people want
---
And the fact lenders want a buzz word check list of things to make a property the most saleable for the maximum return...
For instance... Here in the bush and away from the river bottom where 99% of town is, you will not get a lender for a home that doesn't have central air conditioning.. There may be only 20 days at most where that would be needed, or useful in an average year, but it is still a box that must be checked off or you do not get financing..
|
|
Beno
Senior Member
Posts: 1,310
Likes: 1,433
Location: Northern Rivers
|
Post by Beno on Jan 13, 2023 11:15:10 GMT 10
in many countries, is the older walkable neighbourhoods are vastly more expensive than the 'copy and paste' suburban housing developments, because that's what people want --- And the fact lenders want a buzz word check list of things to make a property the most saleable for the maximum return... For instance... Here in the bush and away from the river bottom where 99% of town is, you will not get a lender for a home that doesn't have central air conditioning.. There may be only 20 days at most where that would be needed, or useful in an average year, but it is still a box that must be checked off or you do not get financing.. whaaaa? air con in Canada to get bank finance? that surely must refer to heating with a reverse cycle system? So you don’t get the urge to burn wood to keep cozy at home. Burning wood is evil. Extracting oil from Tar sands are fine though and damming pristine rivers. |
|
Tim Horton
Senior Member
Posts: 1,951
Likes: 2,003
|
Post by Tim Horton on Jan 14, 2023 7:40:12 GMT 10
that surely must refer to heating with a reverse cycle system?
---
If you are thinking about what is referred to as a ...heat pump.... combination unit ?? They do not work here as our high to low temps are way out of the range they work the best..
Besides, lenders want conventional gas, forced air and central AC as part of the ...what sells best and quickest... checklist...
|
|
