malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 12, 2023 16:58:31 GMT 10
Alright, so you've gone and bought a 1990's odd Toyota Land-cruiser diesel, mechanically fuel injected, should survive an EMP. Right ? Bong......
All modern diesels have a electric solenoid coupled to the injector pump stop rack. Very convenient, just turn the key, the solenoid pucks up, a little further and the starter turn the engine over and away she goes. Shutting down is just as easy, just turn the key to the off position, the solenoid drops out, the rack is pulled shut by a spring, and she stops. Easy.
On the earlier engines, that solenoid was external to the pump, coupled to a lever that did the work. Often, that solenoid would burn out, and the truck would stop. Bear in mind that it must be continuously rated as its on all the time the engine is running. Easy temporary fix was to wire the solenoid open, gets you home, or the machinery running for the job and order a new one. Easy to replace as well.
On more modern diesels its not so easy. The solenoid is still there, has to be otherwise you couldn't stop the engine, but its internal to the injector pump. We are not talking about electronic fuel injection here, but the old school mechanical style. Thankfully, the reliability of these solenoids is very good, Ive only seen one failed to date, and that was the terminal had come loose and burned off.
All that changes once the bomb goes off. Whilst the starter and its associated wiring, solenoid, battery, etc will probably survive the pulse as they are very robust and low impedance path to earth, the stop solenoid is another matter. Its is wound with many turns of fine wire, and is quite high impedance, which would allow for voltage drop across it from the EMP pulse. This may damage the wire, rendering it an open circuit, or short circuit, either way stranding you. As its internal to the injector pump, you cant easily get to it to wire it open and get the engine going. But there is more, worse effects.
All modern engines have alternators. At the pulse, the diodes that rectify the AC to charge the battery will go short circuit. What happens next depends on how diligent the designer as been. The diodes could just glow, burn up and vapourise. This is the ideal solution. The diesel doesn't need electric to run, or does it ? Other scenarios are the wiring harness fluoresces and sets the vehicle on fire, or the designer has thought of an alternator issue and installed a heavy duty fuse that promptly blows, saving the fireworks for later. The regulator will be toast as well, but as the alternator is destroyed, that doesn't matter.
So, say we have an external solenoid, we wire it open and start the engine. Not having an alternator wont really matter during the day, but will limit your night time travel. But, you should be able to get home from work.
We now have prepared for this eventuality, and have a replacement alternator, wrapped in a Faraday shield, ready to be installed. On most vehicles this is an awkward, but manageable job and you have it done in a few hours, amid some bad words.
Fast forward a few years, the world is recovering, slowly, and the battery in your land-cruiser is nearly dead, with no prospect of a replacement.
No worry's, I will just park her on the hill and do a gravity start.
Unlike the old fashioned generator, an alternator needs a small amount of current to excite its field winding. This is usually provided by the ignition light on the older vehicles, but could also come from the regulator.
No worry's so far, during the day at least. But, without a battery, or a dead one, there will be no field excitation, so no output, no matter how fast you spin it, it aint gonna work. No night driving any more.
You have got used to pulling a piece of fencing wire to shut her down.
Another issue is that the diodes in the alternator can be damaged by excess voltage, as many have found jump starting a dead vehicle, and then when the leads are removed, there is not enough charge in the battery to load the alternator down, thereby keeping the over-voltage to a minimum, and burning out the alternator diodes. Add to this that some manufactures are using diodes with a voltage rating of only 20 volts, instead of several hundred (supposedly to protect the electrics from a fault), and if you don't know these things, you are going to have a hard time of it. Ditto for disconnecting a battery whilst the engine is running. With old fashioned generators u could get away with it, but an alternator reacts too quickly, and its electronic regulator could be damaged. Older generators used mechanical regulators, and they were much more tolerant of faulty operating conditions.
When I first became aware of the possibility of EMP's, WW3, and so on after watching the 1970's TV show called Survivors, I built up my bug out/home vehicle.
A diesel Landrover, with 2 generators, 4 big 6 volt battery's, one set for the refrigerator, and one for the normal functions. All mechanically driven, little electronics to go wrong and none that would stop it if they did.
Had that truck for over 40 years, replaced few axils, diffs, gearboxes, and head gaskets (not enough head bolts). But it never let me down. Left it at the other farm when we sold, wish I had kept it now, they are worth a small fortune.
Knowledge is power, learn all you can whilst you can.
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Post by ausprep130 on Sept 13, 2023 9:32:03 GMT 10
Would an EMP impact a chainsaw?
And would there be any difference in impact between old school chainsaws vs new 'smart carburettor ' and 'fuel injected' models.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 13, 2023 10:07:00 GMT 10
Anything 'smart' is toast.
The really old Sthil (08S models seems to ring a bell), ones that used conventional points and coil ignition, will be OK, but anything with an electronic module is gonna be useless. If u had a spare module that was appropriately stored, then change it out and it will probably work. I have an spare ignition module for my farm Ute, stored in aluminum foil in the tool box, as well as several universal ignition systems, appropriately stored as well, and the knowledge to adapt them to suit a variety of small engines. It may be duct taped to the outside of a tiller engine, but who cares what it looks like at that stage, as long as it works ?
All modern fuel injection equipment is electronic controlled, so is dead in the water after an EMP/CME.
A CME may be survivable, as its a slower rise-time pulse and the inbuilt surge protection may be able to trigger in time to prevent a dangerous over-voltage situation.
In the brave new world, knowledge will be power, get it now, avoid the rush !
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spatial
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Post by spatial on Sept 13, 2023 11:46:57 GMT 10
Would an EMP impact a chainsaw? And would there be any difference in impact between old school chainsaws vs new 'smart carburettor ' and 'fuel injected' models. EMP to my understanding is a large area electrical induction. Chainsaw not currently running and in a shed should be fine. I don't see how there can be a power spike to sensitive non grid connected electronics if they are not currently running and are indoors or in a vehicle. Vehicles make a prefect faraday cage. |
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 13, 2023 13:24:11 GMT 10
Test for EMP proofness.
Go into the shed/car etc.
Try and make a phone call on your bat phone.
If you can, its not EMP proof.
Simple test.
The only thing around here that completely kills the phone reception is inside the steel shipping container, with the door closed. That's where the spare gear is stored.
If you make it too tough for the enemy to get in you can't get out.
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Tim Horton
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Post by Tim Horton on Sept 19, 2023 2:44:36 GMT 10
Kind of curious.... As I'm mostly electrical illiterate.. I did live in the woods once that was fed by a small local area sub station ...near as I could figure out...
The sub station would suffer from squirrels shorting things out occasionally but once it suffered a lightning strike. Power was out a couple days as I recall.. It took some time to fix the sub station it seemed... Was this just a random event ?? Similar or not to an EMP or other outage ??
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 19, 2023 9:01:17 GMT 10
A lightning discharge is probably the closest thing to an EMP that we can experience. The issue is not the damage it will cause, but the spare parts situation. Large transformers cost in the millions, and take several years to manufacture. Even repair may be problematical if the basics, wire, insulation etc are not available locally and have to be imported form China without any shipping operational. Our modern society is like a house of cards, disrupt one part and it all collapses. Add to this the availability of heavy equipment to dismantle the gear, assuming such equipment has somehow survived, and the fact that there are literally 1,000's of pieces of gear that will need to be replaced. Obviously, cities will be priority no 1, so anyone in the 'bush' will have no electric for potentially years. Are you ready for that ?
Don't adjust your mind, the fault is with reality.
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Tim Horton
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Post by Tim Horton on Sept 19, 2023 10:19:40 GMT 10
Our modern society is like a house of cards, disrupt one part and it all collapses.
== ==
So true, especially with the electric grid.. When rural electric was built in the bulk of what is considered ...fly over.. the prairie states and provinces of the US and Canada.. This in the 1920s and 1930s, it was constructed and maintained yet today to be the most efficient and cost effective for the system.. Virtually no security concerns at the time. At one time there seemed problems with environmental terrorist of the day doing damage to equipment and causing outages.. Not so much now it seems, but it would take very little well planned damage to cause major problems I suspect..
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 19, 2023 10:57:36 GMT 10
There is another concern that not many think about. Security of the grid. Most of it is exposed and impossible to protect conventionally, perhaps that's a case for making it all underground, but transformers etc are still vulnerable. Get off the grid ASAP.
No it wasn't me, and you cant prove it.
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spatial
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Post by spatial on Sept 19, 2023 14:35:57 GMT 10
Our modern society is like a house of cards, disrupt one part and it all collapses. == == So true, especially with the electric grid.. When rural electric was built in the bulk of what is considered ...fly over.. the prairie states and provinces of the US and Canada.. This in the 1920s and 1930s, it was constructed and maintained yet today to be the most efficient and cost effective for the system.. Virtually no security concerns at the time. At one time there seemed problems with environmental terrorist of the day doing damage to equipment and causing outages.. Not so much now it seems, but it would take very little well planned damage to cause major problems I suspect.. Well power outage, no internet no water supply, transport disruption, no food deliveries etc... etc... It is different to any other time in history, and the impacts are going to be worse than any pervious time in recorded history. It is also biblical that what is coming will be worse than anything previous. Matt: 24 |
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 19, 2023 15:59:58 GMT 10
"It is also biblical that what is coming will be worse than anything previous. Matt: 24"
But it wont last forever, then these evil people will be dealt with and I aim to be around to see that.
From the fall, 3 1/2 years to survive, doable with preparation and prayer.
The culmination of history, and we are living it. Enjoy.
Never believe anything the Government says until its been officially denied.
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Tim Horton
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Post by Tim Horton on Sept 20, 2023 5:53:40 GMT 10
still vulnerable.(the power grid or water) Get off the grid ASAP.
== ==
Even if you can't get totally off grid.. At least have basic alternatives in place to get by for ...fill in the blank... amount of time..
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bug
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Post by bug on Oct 6, 2023 13:47:20 GMT 10
There is another concern that not many think about. Security of the grid. Most of it is exposed and impossible to protect conventionally, perhaps that's a case for making it all underground, but transformers etc are still vulnerable. Get off the grid ASAP. No it wasn't me, and you cant prove it. Anyone who can cut through a cyclone fence and throw a brick can take out a local grid. It is incredibly vulnerable. |
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Oct 6, 2023 13:59:45 GMT 10
Or shoot out a large transformer, which drops its oil everywhere and then overheats. Like you said, the grid is incredibly vulnerable, and there is no impetus or will to protect it. Such transformers are one offs, specialty units that weigh in at many 10's of tons and take years to procure. They have all sorts of protection, overload, temperature, water ingress etc, but still it would take potentially weeks to repair such an incursion.
Backup, backup, backup, have multiple alternate power sources, solar is good, but also a gasifier to be able run a generator for bad weather when diesel isn't available, or you need to conserve your stored fuel to run planting/harvesting gear.
You might not like the color of that authority (Labor, Liberal etc), but we have to respect it, and that's gonna be hard when they are actively trying to bring us down as a society. Its a world view, not just Australia either. This is a world wide happening, no one will be exempt, even you Mr Kim in North Korea, you will be toeing their line as well.
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bug
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Post by bug on Oct 6, 2023 15:26:46 GMT 10
There is ONE transmission tower line connecting NSW and Qld. ONE. If that's not insanely vulnerable then I don't know what is.
Our national grid isn't a 'grid' in the usual sense of it. It's a series of regions that are poorly interconnected, yet entirely dependant on each other.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Oct 7, 2023 7:28:57 GMT 10
And when I was last involved, that interconnection as its called, can't handle the full load in either direction. You are sunk if it goes down and there is a major failure somewhere.
The grid doesn't seem any more robust than when I was a shift sparky at AIS Port Kembla in the late '60's. At the now decommissioned slab mill, was a generator set. It was 6,600 volts motor, direct driving 6 off 4,040 amp, 500 volt dc generators, exciters, and a 200 ton flywheel. One mill operator would line up 5 or 6 ingots on the run in table, take a few inches off the first two, then set the rolls to the final thickness, and let em rip. Normally it takes a dozen or so passes to squash the ingot to a slab, but this guy would do it in one pass, sometimes breaking a roll. Anyway, he was on my shift one night and I was expecting something. I heard the bang as the first ingot scrabbled through, then the Ilgner set (That's what it was called), started to whine, and sparks 50 foot long bounced from the ceiling off the commutators. The inter-works phone rang, it was power control. 'What the hell are you doing, you are pulling the whole grid of NSW down)......' The Electricity Commission at Pyrmont in Sydney could tell when we were rolling as every ingot that we put through the mill, caused a small dip in the NSW grid, not noticeable but using their sensitive metering they could tell when AIS was rolling steel at Port Kembla.
Is the grid any more stable now ? Probably not with all the solar etc connected.
I've been asked: "How many guns do you need to have?" My answer remains the same: "One more."
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Oct 7, 2023 8:32:21 GMT 10
I also remember that we had to tell Power Control about an hour before restarting after a down day, so they could inform the Electricity Commission to put more turbines on line to get the Ilgner set away.
The Amish powerball is up 200 chickens and a goat.
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Tim Horton
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Post by Tim Horton on Oct 7, 2023 11:41:33 GMT 10
Our national grid isn't a 'grid' in the usual sense of it. It's a series of regions that are poorly interconnected, yet entirely dependant on each other.
--- ---
Trivia... I'm about as electrical illiterate as I am computer illiterate.. However.. The North American REA (Rural Electric Association) is what brought electricity to rural North America in the 1930s.. Incidentally this program was said to be instrumental in the winning of WW2, but that is another thread..
At the time.. The system was built to be the most economical and efficient at the time.. Like said, built in regions, districts as it were, and likely much of it is little better integrated with neighboring regions today as then.. I also presume system security was likely a long way down the list of concerns when it was built.. At one time the anti coal power plant protester type groups I believe it was, did damage to the grid with there minimal sabotage skills and efforts.. But what do I know..
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Oct 7, 2023 14:55:52 GMT 10
Australia had a real mix of grid standards back then. 25 hz, 110 hz, 50 hz and 60hz as well as quite a bit of 110 v DC.
Now our mains standard is single phase 230 volts, 50 Hz and 3 phase is 415 volts. High voltage is multiples of 3.3 KV, but there is some HV DC around, Basslink for example.
Almost 75 % of the world is 50 Hz, 220/230 volts, with a 3 phase of 380/440 volts.
Modern power semiconductors have made the 50 hz vs 60 hz debate almost irrelevant as its easy to convert from one to the other at high powers.
Slightly more power can be obtained from engines at 60 hz as they are running at 3,600 rpm (2 pole), vs 3,000 rpm for 50 hz (2 pole).
In the end, gravity wins.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Oct 15, 2023 15:30:24 GMT 10
Talking to a colleague whose wife's BMW has a computer fault. They found another one, original equipment from Germany, and have so far spent almost 3 months trying to get it to communicate with the existing computers. And failed, not even BMW are able to help, or even particularly interested. Its now been towed to the main dealer on the Gold Coast, and they can't even work it out. What hope is there after an EMP to get these vehicles working again if during "normal times" the dealers cant get it going ?
Who controls the food supply controls the people.
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