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EMP
Mar 25, 2015 6:47:51 GMT 10
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Post by catherinek on Mar 25, 2015 6:47:51 GMT 10
I was wondering if anyone could help me me out with a few answers please.
In the event of an EMP, what parts in would be effected in an old, non computerised vehicle?
Would Solar panels and battery packs survive an EMP?
And, would an old metal, army ammo box serve as a suitable Faraday cage, or does it have to be a particular type of metal?
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EMP
Mar 25, 2015 6:57:45 GMT 10
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Post by pheniox17 on Mar 25, 2015 6:57:45 GMT 10
This is a very hit and miss topic...
A ammo can may work... A metal trash can or old chest freezer are other favourites
Any metal will work as long as its sealed and no gaps in the metal
To the parts question... Again very hit and miss, but a alternator, anything that has a coil and starter motor...
They do studies on emp effects on cars, trucks etc in the states... They won't release details but overall most cars should still run... They may stall when the emp hits... But there is a likelihood the car may restart
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remnantprep
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Post by remnantprep on Mar 25, 2015 7:06:22 GMT 10
Those powdered milk tins and large coffee cans can act quite well as a cage, especially for smaller items like small radios etc. The lids and container are all metal with a tight seal.
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Post by graynomad on Mar 25, 2015 8:26:44 GMT 10
Also the chances of us getting an EMP in Oz are minuscule I reckon, it doesn't even show on my radar.
A CME is always possible, even likely, but AFAIK that has little or no effect on most electronics, only huge items over 300 feet or so in size, like transmission lines. So a CME will not blow up your computer or car or anything as long as you are not connected to said transmission lines (IE off grid), of course it will cripple society as a whole so there will be a knock-on effect.
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Post by Peter on Mar 25, 2015 8:48:45 GMT 10
I'm personally more concerned about a different risk to electronics - hackers taking down the power grid. Even though disconnected items won't be affected, that would be a very large scale SHTF event.
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EMP
Mar 25, 2015 10:05:25 GMT 10
Post by catherinek on Mar 25, 2015 10:05:25 GMT 10
Also the chances of us getting an EMP in Oz are minuscule I reckon, it doesn't even show on my radar. A CME is always possible, even likely, but AFAIK that has little or no effect on most electronics, only huge items over 300 feet or so in size, like transmission lines. So a CME will not blow up your computer or car or anything as long as you are not connected to said transmission lines (IE off grid), of course it will cripple society as a whole so there will be a knock-on effect. I'm sorry but I don't know what a CME or AFAIK is. I was thinking more along the lines of a man made EMP rather than than one from a solar flare. Although it may not happen, I feel that I'm better prepared by knowing, than not knowing anything.
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EMP
Mar 25, 2015 10:11:10 GMT 10
Post by catherinek on Mar 25, 2015 10:11:10 GMT 10
I'm personally more concerned about a different risk to electronics - hackers taking down the power grid. Even though disconnected items won't be affected, that would be a very large scale SHTF event. I agree, I think this should also be of a concern.
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Post by Fractus on Mar 25, 2015 11:38:56 GMT 10
I saw a show on Nat geo where they found a metal garbage can worked best when the lid was taped to base with adhesive aluminium tape. I call it sarking tape but not sure if that is accurate name.
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EMP
Mar 25, 2015 12:40:39 GMT 10
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Post by graynomad on Mar 25, 2015 12:40:39 GMT 10
CME — Coronial Mass Ejection, AKA a solar flare AFAIK — As Far As I Know EMP has three stages, the first one or two are what blows up electronics, the third does not and it's similar to what you get with a CME. Regardless of how the grid goes down, the fact that it is down is the problem, especially if real physical damage occurs like blown transformers. "sarking tape" sounds right.
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EMP
Mar 25, 2015 13:26:52 GMT 10
Post by catherinek on Mar 25, 2015 13:26:52 GMT 10
I saw a show on Nat geo where they found a metal garbage can worked best when the lid was taped to base with adhesive aluminium tape. I call it sarking tape but not sure if that is accurate name. Thanks, that gives me something to go looking for, any idea where I can get it from?
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EMP
Mar 25, 2015 13:32:05 GMT 10
Post by catherinek on Mar 25, 2015 13:32:05 GMT 10
Thanks Greynomad. Do you have any ideas about the solar panels?
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EMP
Mar 25, 2015 16:48:30 GMT 10
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Post by pheniox17 on Mar 25, 2015 16:48:30 GMT 10
To but in on the odds... The odds maybe low... But nothing stops anyone having ago at reresearching it... IMHO if a major emp hits I doubt the damage is going to cone close to what's "predicted" but if bad enough a American blackout situation will be very close to it
On solar panels... Apparently not affected by emp... But the supporting components will be... (Inverters, regulators etc)
A good thing to look up (good luck finding layman's language) is electo magnets and magnetic fields, transformers (elect component) and motors (elect) A emp (electromagnetic pulse) is extremely similar in effect as a transformer... Just such a high rate of energy that the electronic components fry...
Good luck
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Post by Joey on Mar 25, 2015 17:24:00 GMT 10
Anything you put into a faraday cage (metal garbage bin etc ) will still need to be insulted from the metal, something as simple as cardboard is sufficient for this
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Post by catherinek on Mar 25, 2015 18:58:58 GMT 10
Thanks for the info on the insulation for the faraday case.
I've looked for info about solar panel information and emp's but yes you have a point on the "not in lay-mans terms' not alot made sense to me that's why I thought I'd ask on here. Thanks to everyone for your help.
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EMP
Mar 25, 2015 21:23:18 GMT 10
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Post by pheniox17 on Mar 25, 2015 21:23:18 GMT 10
Yeah its quite difficult to get your head around... A basic picture... Think a massive power surge... But unlike normal surges that limit the damage to items plugged in with no protection... The surge is generated independently inside the electrical devices... Creating a lot of smoke... If you ever work out a way to catch all that smoke and get it back into that circuit boards you will be a multi millionaire
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arkane
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EMP
Mar 25, 2015 23:14:05 GMT 10
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Post by arkane on Mar 25, 2015 23:14:05 GMT 10
At the most intense an EMP/CME will produce 50v per metre but that is also directly under the detonation! Assuming all was not perfect, you could expect most areas on the east coast of Australia to receive somewhere between 1 and 10 volt per metre! and that is assuming the wires doing the collecting are parallel to the wave! A uhf handheld CB turned on would get a .1 to 1v pulse as it has a short collection antenna! A 50km long powerline at the best angle would generate somewhere in the vicinity of 50,000 to 500,000 volts
generally cars should run, the grid should not run! radio gear not plugged in should work except for radios with very long antennas, usually stuff lower than 50meghz
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Matilda
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Post by Matilda on Mar 26, 2015 2:37:58 GMT 10
If you do a search on youtube under Faraday cage, EMP protection, etc. I have seen videos on how to build a Faraday cage etc.
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Mar 26, 2015 5:01:38 GMT 10
In the event of an EMP, what parts in would be effected in an old, non computerised vehicle? Automobiles
The potential EMP vulnerability of automobiles derives from the use of built-in electronics that support multiple automotive functions. Electronic components were first introduced into automobiles in the late 1960s. As time passed and electronics technologies evolved, electronic applications in automobiles proliferated. Modern automobiles have as many as 100 microprocessors that control virtually all functions. While electronic applications have proliferated within automobiles, so too have application standards and electromagnetic interference and electromagnetic compatibility (EMI/EMC) practices. Thus, while it might be expected that increased EMP vulnerability would accompany the proliferated electronics applications, this trend, at least in part, is mitigated by the increased application of EMI/EMC practices. We tested a sample of 37 cars in an EMP simulation laboratory, with automobile vintages ranging from 1986 through 2002. Automobiles of these vintages include extensive electronics and represent a significant fraction of automobiles on the road today. The testing was conducted by exposing running and nonrunning automobiles to sequentially increasing EMP field intensities. If anomalous response (either temporary or permanent) was observed, the testing of that particular automobile was stopped. If no anomalous response was observed, the testing was continued up to the field intensity limits of the simulation capability (approximately 50 kV/m). Automobiles were subjected to EMP environments under both engine turned off and engine turned on conditions. No effects were subsequently observed in those automobiles that were not turned on during EMP exposure. The most serious effect observed on running automobiles was that the motors in three cars stopped at field strengths of approximately 30 kV/m or above. In an actual EMP exposure, these vehicles would glide to a stop and require the driver to restart them. Electronics in the dashboard of one automobile were damaged and required repair. Other effects were relatively minor. Twenty-five automobiles exhibited malfunctions that could be considered only a nuisance (e.g., blinking dashboard lights) and did not require driver intervention to correct. Eight of the 37 cars tested did not exhibit any anomalous response. Based on these test results, we expect few automobile effects at EMP field levels below 25 kV/m. Approximately 10 percent or more of the automobiles exposed to higher field levels may experience serious EMP effects, including engine stall, that require driver intervention to correct. We further expect that at least two out of three automobiles on the road will manifest some nuisance response at these higher field levels. The serious malfunctions could trigger car crashes on U.S. highways; the nuisance malfunctions could exacerbate this condition. The ultimate result of automobile EMP exposure could be triggered crashes that damage many more vehicles than are damaged by the EMP, the consequent loss of life, and multiple injuries.
Trucks As is the case for automobiles, the potential EMP vulnerability of trucks derives from the trend toward increasing use of electronics. We assessed the EMP vulnerability of trucks using an approach identical to that used for automobiles. Eighteen running and nonrunning trucks were exposed to simulated EMP in a laboratory. The intensity of the EMP fields was increased until either anomalous response was observed or simulator limits were reached. The trucks ranged from gasoline-powered pickup trucks to large diesel- powered tractors. Truck vintages ranged from 1991 to 2003.
Of the trucks that were not running during EMP exposure, none were subsequently affected during our test. Thirteen of the 18 trucks exhibited a response while running. Most seriously, three of the truck motors stopped. Two could be restarted immediately, but one required towing to a garage for repair. The other 10 trucks that responded exhibited relatively minor temporary responses that did not require driver intervention to correct. Five of the 18 trucks tested did not exhibit any anomalous response up to field strengths of approximately 50 kV/m. Based on these test results, we expect few truck effects at EMP field levels below approximately 12 kV/m. At higher field levels, 70 percent or more of the trucks on the road will manifest some anomalous response following EMP exposure. Approximately 15 percent or more of the trucks will experience engine stall, sometimes with permanent damage that the driver cannot correct. Similar to the case for automobiles, the EMP impact on trucks could trigger vehicle crashes on U.S. highways. As a result, many more vehicles could be damaged than those damaged directly by EMP exposure.Source - www.empcommission.org/reports.php - Definitely. What might not is the regulator. Any metal. 'Sealed' is best and you can double pack it, that is wrap in tin foil, insulate from box [cardboard would more than do it] and then seal whatever box you like. I'd wrap cheap aluminum foil or the stick on flashing around the small gap around the lid to be sure. You can test it by sticking a radio that's on [and loud] and noticing how weak [and hopefully dead] the signal goes. It's a good approximation. A microwave works pretty well, it's already a faraday cage protecting us from microwave radiation cooking us. You can see them on the side of the road during hard rubbish collection all of the time. Convenient too.
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EMP
Mar 26, 2015 5:50:49 GMT 10
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Post by Fractus on Mar 26, 2015 5:50:49 GMT 10
I saw a show on Nat geo where they found a metal garbage can worked best when the lid was taped to base with adhesive aluminium tape. I call it sarking tape but not sure if that is accurate name. Thanks, that gives me something to go looking for, any idea where I can get it from? Roofing supplies will have it in many areas. I have not looked but Bunnings may well have it. As I work at a roofing safety company we have lots of it but that does not help you up there. I am in Victoria
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EMP
Mar 26, 2015 6:58:36 GMT 10
Post by catherinek on Mar 26, 2015 6:58:36 GMT 10
If you ever work out a way to catch all that smoke and get it back into that circuit boards you will be a multi millionaire Wouldn't that be nice Thank-you Matilda I will have a look Thanks Fractus, next time I go to Bunnings I will have a look for it Thank-you Shinester that was a very interesting read Thank-you arkane, just wondering, if a raido not plugged in could still work, would that apply to other appliances as well?
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