joji
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Post by joji on Apr 22, 2015 15:33:24 GMT 10
Hi all, Most of my mates are in USA and all swear by meat rabbits, anyone tried to raise meat rabbits in Australia. I'm concerned about the risk of loosing the lot to Myxomatosis and calicivirus and wondering if anyone has had any success and if they had if they had any specific suggestions to reduce the concern. I'm not against immunising my breeding trio against Myxo but you can't against calici... To be clear I don't have a gun or bow etc. and therefore don't want to hunt rabbits on our property and they bait with poison in our area for rabbits and I have seen to many dogs die from a poisoned rabbit to really want to eat the local wild ones anyway. Thanks Joji
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Post by thereth on Apr 22, 2015 16:52:14 GMT 10
good question joji, I to have wondered this as even though we have a lot of rabbits out here, they frequently bait so I am paranoid (comes with th territory of being a prepper).
I have seen "farmed" rabbits for sale at the markets however I havent heard of anyone doing it on a smaller homesteading scale
Watching this with interest as I have seen it done successfully in th UK and USA but not heard of it here in Aus.
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Apr 22, 2015 19:39:23 GMT 10
Joji, my longer term plans include setting up a small farm that is as self sufficient as possible. Accordingly rabbits looked very attractive, particularly with the US successes. They don't like the heat, a problem if you're going to keep them in cages and when we looked at the impact of and how easily it's caught of disease we have in this country, at least for myself the sums didn't win out. Too much risk at loosing a whole colony even with insect protection and immunization is possible but costly. From what you might gather of the mindsets here, I'd also be looking for post SHTF sustainability, to which immunization isn't and keeping rabbits cool is tricky [you can keep them in underground burrows I suppose]. I came to the conclusion that chooks are the better option considering climate, feed cost and output. Do your own research of course, your circumstances will be yours.
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Post by Peter on Apr 22, 2015 20:30:09 GMT 10
I've often thought of rabbits as a suitable source of protein; while cows, pigs and sheep are great for food, their size would require that one would either waste most of the animal or one would need skills and equipment for charcuterie production and storage. Poultry, fowl and small mammals (such as rabbits and guinea pigs) would be more suitable if preserving the meat and offal wasn't a valid option.
Should I have opportunity to move to a homesteading property, rabbits and guinea pigs would be planned as an important food source.
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Post by Fractus on Apr 22, 2015 22:19:17 GMT 10
Joji, my longer term plans include setting up a small farm that is as self sufficient as possible. Accordingly rabbits looked very attractive, particularly with the US successes. They don't like the heat, a problem if you're going to keep them in cages and when we looked at the impact of and how easily it's caught of disease we have in this country, at least for myself the sums didn't win out. Too much risk at loosing a whole colony even with insect protection and immunization is possible but costly. From what you might gather of the mindsets here, I'd also be looking for post SHTF sustainability, to which immunization isn't and keeping rabbits cool is tricky [you can keep them in underground burrows I suppose]. I came to the conclusion that chooks are the better option considering climate, feed cost and output. Do your own research of course, your circumstances will be yours. This is my goal also. I have the chickens but rabbits are nearly as much work unless you have a large free range setup and don't give me eggs also. Plus from what I read rabbits have great protein levels but not sufficient fat so would be best as supplementary to other live stock. alos you can begin keeping chickens in any place that has even a tiny yard so learn now while there is no pressure. also pigeons would be good as they come in several meat bird varieties and in theory forage for them selves mainly. They breed like rabbits and don't get callisi or myxo. Although there is the bird flu to be considered. sorry a bit off meat rabbits
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Apr 23, 2015 9:17:14 GMT 10
Return of protein versus feed puts rabbits first and chickens second. I even looked into guinea pigs which are also up there also and don't have the disease issues of rabbits. I also looked at Aquaponics with fish, though in Vic I didn't find a suitable fish [trout are close but can die in the heat due to O2 issues] and the inputs of fish feed made it not sustainable. I had imagined [and worked out how to do it] of having insect traps powered by solar power that would dump insects into the water for fish food as a means to feed without fish food but the numbers still weren't enough. Of course I had the filter of my own circumstances and my own criteria
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Post by thereth on Apr 23, 2015 12:06:24 GMT 10
Having done research into aquaponics as well, I have found that Bass would be the best fish to use and to try to farm mealworms for feed for them.
Bass seem to be fairly resistant to temperature differences and are apparently omnivorous. I am also looking at the idea of using feed wuality grain as food for them as well.
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token
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Post by token on Oct 22, 2016 18:41:59 GMT 10
I have hunted and raised rabbits for a while now. Lots to say, firstly, my advice is 'dont vaccinate against Calici' lots to say on this, but basically there are a number of strains, class actions were attempted at being filed from folk with personal rabbitries like my own and they all failed. New strain is already out, and another in 2017 in the cooler months would you believe it.
The meat is awesome, easy to keep animal also, i call them the antipoverty animal. Any more ?'s please ask, im happy to share what i know and help where i can.
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Post by Joey on Oct 22, 2016 21:38:18 GMT 10
Just got to check with state and local regulations about keeping rabbits. A lot of places they are banned as pets and classed as pest animals
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token
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Post by token on Oct 22, 2016 21:45:02 GMT 10
Just got to check with state and local regulations about keeping rabbits. A lot of places they are banned as pets and classed as pest animals Vics ok atm, but yes, you might have to grow those 'guinea pigs' with big ears in one particular state i know of
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Post by Peter on Oct 22, 2016 21:48:07 GMT 10
I also looked at Aquaponics with fish, though in Vic I didn't find a suitable fish [trout are close but can die in the heat due to O2 issues] ... Seeing this thread has been bumped (which is a good thing), I wonder if agitation of the water's surface would provide adequate oxygen. Perhaps if a windmill could be geared to drive a watermill-style propeller type device to agitate the surface this would help the fish survive. Think of a steamboat's propeller; this would surely add air to the water.
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token
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Post by token on Oct 22, 2016 21:57:19 GMT 10
I also looked at Aquaponics with fish, though in Vic I didn't find a suitable fish [trout are close but can die in the heat due to O2 issues] ... Seeing this thread has been bumped (which is a good thing), I wonder if agitation of the water's surface would provide adequate oxygen. Perhaps if a windmill could be geared to drive a watermill-style propeller type device to agitate the surface this would help the fish survive. Think of a steamboat's propeller; this would surely add air to the water. Dont forget, if you have a cool area that is enclosed such as a basement, then trout should do fine. As far as i understand it, it is only speculated (correct me if im wrong) that the heating of the water causes the loss of oxygen in the water, which is indeed a good thing if its absolutely true because decent enough aeration should fix the problem. Worst thing ever is to think the trout are doing good because they havent floated to the top like last year when it got hot and find out that its because they are dead at the bottom. Its annoying to me that the ultimate aquaponics fish Talapia are banned from being bred at home in many ways, but in others its understandable i suppose (sigh).
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Oct 23, 2016 6:57:17 GMT 10
There's plenty of ways to add the Oxygen one of them as described and it's not about getting the oxygen, rather it's about how much oxygen can dissolve in the water compared to the number of fish in hot water temperatures. You put a lot of fish in a small space for higher production and it's fine if you have your air pumps but when it's hot, the ability for the water to take on O2 is lower than the need for the number of fish you have. So fish die off until the number of fish matches the oxygen levels in it. A solution is to cool the water, which takes an enormous amount of energy or as some breeders do, you pump pure O2 directly into the water and being a higher concentration than the air [air is 1/3 oxygen] it boosts the water oxygen for a short time. Trout are rather susceptible to low oxygen unlike many other breeds, though they are the best fish for Vic otherwise and yet half the speed of growth of silver perch [which are great up north].
To me it's one of a number of issues with Aquaponics, and I want to stress that my research centers around what works here in Vic, which would be similar for states in the south, though may be different depending on availability of fish and temperature. Perhaps the biggest issue is the need for the fish-food which is made from fish and most fish need the oils in the fish and is not cheap and not sustainable. You can supplement it a 'little' depending on the breed, and depending on where you live, black solider fly [no good down south as they die out during winter] and insect traps, though again the need for oils is a problem I ran into. This may not be the case for Talapia, I am unsure.
The useful fish are the quick growing breeds and the available ones are carnivores down south. Talapia [which might be available in WA btw] are herbivores [well technically omnivores] so they can even be fed on food scrap, though of course would need a variety in their diet. Again, I've not researched them fully as you can't get them legally here in Vic [noxious animal] though they self breed , quick to grow, eat almost anything, very tolerant of conditions. If they were available where you are, I would pay a good deal of attention on the ability to feed them, is it possible to do sustainably [look at food production versus food needs of the fish] and I would imagine that would be via a variety of means.
I also found that an aquaponics system was particularly complicated in that it needed a variety of systems working well at the same time with fairly tight tolerances for decent production, the necessity of good amounts of power, to which I did a great deal of research trying to find solutions for. The sacrifice here of power for food production versus other usage. I did make some headway there with low lift pumps that used minimal power.
I ended up passing on it for the problems that weren't really surmountable with my location and available fish and found the simple no-pump hydroponics to be superior in food production [it has it's own problems that I'm currently ironing out], almost as good as pumped hydroponics, very low input, the possibility of capturing most of the nutrients and recycling them back into the system as you can use any liquefied fertilizer. I'm not certain that it's suitable for root crops, though I have contemplated sand as a medium, though growing spuds etc is easy and I think it's probably not worth the effort and you might as well do them in the ground/raised bed/wicking etc. Chickens, to my mind look promising with a good protein compliment with egg production, people have kept them without feed and whilst I'm not particularly familiar with them, I would imagine that feeding them with trapped insects/black soilder fly/worms/food scraps and chicken friendly pasture would probably do the trick. I have only rudimentary knowledge here.
Rabbits concern me due to disease, otherwise they are fantastic as a means of protein, and I very much refer to Token our resident expert on the topic.
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token
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Post by token on Oct 23, 2016 7:32:38 GMT 10
There's plenty of ways to add the Oxygen one of them as described and it's not about getting the oxygen, rather it's about how much oxygen can dissolve in the water compared to the number of fish in hot water temperatures. You put a lot of fish in a small space for higher production and it's fine if you have your air pumps but when it's hot, the ability for the water to take on O2 is lower than the need for the number of fish you have. So fish die off until the number of fish matches the oxygen levels in it. A solution is to cool the water, which takes an enormous amount of energy or as some breeders do, you pump pure O2 directly into the water and being a higher concentration than the air [air is 1/3 oxygen] it boosts the water oxygen for a short time. Trout are rather susceptible to low oxygen unlike many other breeds, though they are the best fish for Vic otherwise and yet half the speed of growth of silver perch [which are great up north]. To me it's one of a number of issues with Aquaponics, and I want to stress that my research centers around what works here in Vic, which would be similar for states in the south, though may be different depending on availability of fish and temperature. Perhaps the biggest issue is the need for the fish-food which is made from fish and most fish need the oils in the fish and is not cheap and not sustainable. You can supplement it a 'little' depending on the breed, and depending on where you live, black solider fly [no good down south as they die out during winter] and insect traps, though again the need for oils is a problem I ran into. This may not be the case for Talapia, I am unsure. The useful fish are the quick growing breeds and the available ones are carnivores down south. Talapia [which might be available in WA btw] are herbivores [well technically omnivores] so they can even be fed on food scrap, though of course would need a variety in their diet. Again, I've not researched them fully as you can't get them legally here in Vic [noxious animal] though they self breed , quick to grow, eat almost anything, very tolerant of conditions. If they were available where you are, I would pay a good deal of attention on the ability to feed them, is it possible to do sustainably [look at food production versus food needs of the fish] and I would imagine that would be via a variety of means. I also found that an aquaponics system was particularly complicated in that it needed a variety of systems working well at the same time with fairly tight tolerances for decent production, the necessity of good amounts of power, to which I did a great deal of research trying to find solutions for. The sacrifice here of power for food production versus other usage. I did make some headway there with low lift pumps that used minimal power. I ended up passing on it for the problems that weren't really surmountable with my location and available fish and found the simple no-pump hydroponics to be superior in food production [it has it's own problems that I'm currently ironing out], almost as good as pumped hydroponics, very low input, the possibility of capturing most of the nutrients and recycling them back into the system as you can use any liquefied fertilizer. I'm not certain that it's suitable for root crops, though I have contemplated sand as a medium, though growing spuds etc is easy and I think it's probably not worth the effort and you might as well do them in the ground/raised bed/wicking etc. Chickens, to my mind look promising with a good protein compliment with egg production, people have kept them without feed and whilst I'm not particularly familiar with them, I would imagine that feeding them with trapped insects/black soilder fly/worms/food scraps and chicken friendly pasture would probably do the trick. I have only rudimentary knowledge here. Rabbits concern me due to disease, otherwise they are fantastic as a means of protein, and I very much refer to Token our resident expert on the topic. Good commenting mate, yes ive read and or seen much of that on the aquaponics. A friend of mine was right into it for a few seasons there. Fish got a disease and needed to flush the thing with huge amounts of salt, it didnt work and the fish died. Food does grow great though. She last experimented with yabbies but then had to move, again, slower to grow and youll need plenty of them for food. It does grow great veggies though and fast. I did the kratky method of hydro and worked good, although the NPK ration varies depending on what you want to grow and i wouldnt say it would work for everything you want to grow without significant tweeking and effort. As for rabbits, im no expert and always learning. Did you know last year i started harder breeding and a new strain of Calici killed everything id done except 2 bucks and 1 doe. I lost over 20 rabbits in 3 weeks. This strain of calici killed kittens which the last strain didnt and it wasnt supposed to be out, although the fools website showed they let it out, then they took that page down and denied it Another friends rabbitry i set up lost 7 cages, 40 rabbits, another 23 rabbits. People who vaccinated at $30 a pop for a pet and $6 a pop for commercial lost their rabbits to the new strain! I have through just one doe and two bucks increased my rabbitry once more, only through just 3 litters, however, being Spring, im just sitting here waiting for the screams from my backyard again and to find dead rabbits. Hopefully we have some that can resist varying strains, ill have to wait and see. btw, did you end up eating that wabbit yet?
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Oct 23, 2016 9:44:14 GMT 10
I haven't really had issues with NPK at all. Though I've only done small scale experiments at this point. Only problem I've had with the Kratky method [no pump hydroponics] is getting the water level right and something [snails I think] eating all of my young lettuce, though that's another issue really. Rain keeps screwing with my experiments and over filling [and retarding growth with the flooded root ball] as I've had wide tubs that collect the water. I've got another plan to use downpipe which ought to reduce the water collection, just haven't got around to it as I have too many projects going on currently.
Yeah I knew about your wabbit deaths, which is what turned me off them, the cost per vaccination isn't worth it and the death rate is rather high and as you have said, it doesn't protect them any longer anyhow. Some minor issues for summer and heat. They have a good food to meat ratio, assuming you don't lose them. I know they breed up quick again, they're crazily prolific which makes them great for food production but the risk versus reward doesn't look like it pans out?
Chickens on the other hand give a great return [eggs and meat] for little maintenance and can be used as tractors to make soil barren with no effort.
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token
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Post by token on Oct 23, 2016 15:19:22 GMT 10
I haven't really had issues with NPK at all. Though I've only done small scale experiments at this point. Only problem I've had with the Kratky method [no pump hydroponics] is getting the water level right and something [snails I think] eating all of my young lettuce, though that's another issue really. Rain keeps screwing with my experiments and over filling [and retarding growth with the flooded root ball] as I've had wide tubs that collect the water. I've got another plan to use downpipe which ought to reduce the water collection, just haven't got around to it as I have too many projects going on currently. Yeah I knew about your wabbit deaths, which is what turned me off them, the cost per vaccination isn't worth it and the death rate is rather high and as you have said, it doesn't protect them any longer anyhow. Some minor issues for summer and heat. They have a good food to meat ratio, assuming you don't lose them. I know they breed up quick again, they're crazily prolific which makes them great for food production but the risk versus reward doesn't look like it pans out? Chickens on the other hand give a great return [eggs and meat] for little maintenance and can be used as tractors to make soil barren with no effort. Yer for sure, the rain gets in and dillutes the solution, a friend prepper of mine has them in a rotunda area which covers them majority whilst still letting in light, have you thought about a sheet of laserlight over the top so that they get the light and heat but the rain keeps off them? The issue with calici is serious indeed. A complete stuff up by the gubermint and the org they employ to tackle this. For one, they havent even done proper testing on whether the strains of Calici can cross species! dur!!!! what a mess. If chickens start dying everywhere from calici spreading to poultry it will then end up being a massive issue as more folk have pet chooks and or is a more readily eaten meat, but for now, they discriminate against rabbit owners, even for pets and dont care. They also said that they will release the virus's and will not give a vaccination against it before they do the arrogance and control is unreal! However. There are rabbits that are resistant to the virus and its varying strains. I still have wild rabbits around and on my new block atm, so its a waiting game and the group that makes this stuff and releases it still admit there are rabbits resistant to such, so long term there is no way they can get rid of the mighty bunny. I will hang in there as i have the infrastructure for such as long as i have a breeding pair. Have to wait and see. oh and forgot to say, because of all the water we got this year, there are more mozzies than ever before and with calici being vector borne its this year that will fix to be the worst yet if i dont have rabbits with natural immunity to such.
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Oct 24, 2016 5:47:47 GMT 10
I'm a little skeptical on it not been tested about crossover, though if that's indeed the case, it could be far worse, it could cross over to humans. In terms of what to do about the bunnies, we could just eat them again, Australians already eat lots of chicken, not a massive difference.
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token
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Post by token on Oct 24, 2016 8:12:43 GMT 10
I'm a little skeptical on it not been tested about crossover, though if that's indeed the case, it could be far worse, it could cross over to humans. In terms of what to do about the bunnies, we could just eat them again, Australians already eat lots of chicken, not a massive difference. Exactly right about eating them. this is something that drives me nuts tbh. Put a price on their head and watch what happens, and if supply exceeds demand, then put em in as pet food. We have plenty of resources available in roos and rabbits, why arent we tapping them like we should. Both eat well.
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