shinester
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Post by shinester on Mar 26, 2016 1:07:41 GMT 10
I've thought about this for a bit, I already have more than enough centralized solar power to charge radios and a few other options but I wanted to come up with another layer of redundancy as I see communications as a pretty important component. I'll be concentrating on 2 radios both Baofeng, UV-5R [$45 or so] which has more channels than you can poke a stick at but isn't as straight forward to use and BF-888 [$22] which is incredibly simple to use and if you don't mind having 16 channels does the trick at a cheaper price. Both pretty similar outputs in power. Both can be programmed for many channels though typically they're not set up for Australian legal channels, so you need a cable to program them and with the right software it's pretty easy to do. The BF-888 has a scramble feature also. Not perfect security but better than nothing. On to charging them. My criteria are; - portable and small, can be put in a small backpack.
- solar powered
- could go almost indefinitely
- works any time of the year. - when you think of solar you have to consider the worst time of the year as being the potential power generation capacity so you're not left needing more power. - as economical as possible - cheap and works is the criteria. The main drive behind this is having a few kits to supply friends/neighbors in the immediate area, better budgets equate to more friends with radios. - have some other utility uses - using USB allows for many devices to be charged such as phones or lights or - can charge a battery in a day - This means that for the BF-888 you need to be able to make 3.7v@1.5Am if fully discharged or 5.6Wh of energy. A winter [June] day in Victoria makes about 2.4 times the solar panel output [in W] per day on average, so a panel of about 3.5W ought to give us about 8.4Wh at the worst time of the year, which allows for losses and allows for some days being really poor, so we're well above the needed energy. In summer we have the plenty of power with up to 24.1Wh per day as a comparison. The UV-5R have a bigger battery and accordingly need a bigger panel to charge 1 battery in a day. They have about 13.3Wh of energy [and probably take longer to discharge] and so to fully charge them we'll need about 6W of panel. So, here's some ideas for a system Baofeng UV-5R - $44  2 additional batteries - $28 [$14 ea] USB to Baofeng [10v] adapter - $7.10 - plug into charger and solar panel  6W Solar panel - $24.70  There's lots of other accessories also, an antenna might be one that you go with and it's best to get one programming cable . Total Cost $104Baofeng BF-888 - $22  2 additional batteries $5ea, $10! USB charger $5.50 [$11 for 2] [there's another way that's cheaper but it requires screwing around with soldiering] 3.5W USB panel $9.25 Again, get at least one programming cable $4, though one will do either radio.
Total cost $46.75
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The plans above are for 1 battery per day which might not be enough if the radios are used 24/7 depending on usage. If you're using them in such a roll then you would want to approximately double the solar panel and I'd be charging two batteries at once. For the BF-888 having the 6W panel with a double USB adapter and 2 chargers would do the trick, I'd be tempted to throw in an additional battery to be sure, they're cheap enough. That would bring the system price to about $73. Considering you have 4 batteries [each reported to be 12+ hrs] and more than enough power to charge at the worst times of the year, I can't imagine you ever having an issue with your comms and supply of power. It's also meant to be stationary with the panel pointed towards north at about 37°. If you're walking around with it on your pack you'll get far less power into the batteries. Again, a larger panel would help compensate though not a perfect solution [aka you'll probably not fully charge a panel if you're walking all day] |
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Post by Joey on Mar 26, 2016 7:04:37 GMT 10
Good post there shine.
Just a point to note I've found when dealing with buying radio from O/S, a lot of the UHF stuff is set for the US UHF not Aussie UHF. When picking a baofeng radio make sure you get the ones that go from 450-520Mhz as the 480 ones don't stretch quite as far to get our full spectrum of UHF frequencies, in my experience that is.
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shinester
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China's white trash
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Post by shinester on Mar 26, 2016 19:03:38 GMT 10
The right software does the trick bud. That is units that I have that were supposed to go only to 450mhz are doing 477mhz no problem. CHIRP didn't have that option but the Baofeng software allows you to choose higher bands, such as you have described. A little like some units are sold with our channels, aka they are pre-programmed by sellers here. It takes me about 2 mins to change all of the channels on a radio now.
Not that I'm suggesting it as it's naughty unless you're a HAM user [and even then, you can't transmit] though some people might set up their radios on channels that are used for commercial use and have very little common usage for SHTF.
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Post by bushranger on Mar 27, 2016 13:15:39 GMT 10
"Works anytime of the year" is the stickler. I'm upgrading my comms to ARES-RACES specs. Ie addressing prolonged power options
I've got two standard battery (2 radios) and aa batt pack. I have a USB charging cord which plugs into the base charger. I can charge the BF battery using a degen 13 dynamo but haven't tried 12v (solar/wind), but have the facilities available, albeit, inefficiently with usb adapters.
I've ordered a regulated 12v to 2.5mm cord and a 3800mah oem battery. I should be able to cycle batteries and aa batteries this way.
Just need a biolite now.
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shinester
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China's white trash
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Post by shinester on Mar 27, 2016 14:18:57 GMT 10
Yeah with solar you've got to consider the power output of the panels varies a fair bit. Down here in Vic 2.4x the rated output to 6.9x the rated output per day [as Watt Hrs] 'on average' over a month. So you'll get certain days that are bad and good days and if you stick to having enough power at the worst time of year with a little extra for losses you ought to be pretty close for your power needs.
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Apr 10, 2016 19:35:28 GMT 10
I've had a rethink [as I always do] on this system and I've updated the parts I would suggest for the best bang for buck comms kit that can be kept charged without only the sun. The reason for a total of 4 batteries and a total of 3 USB charges is that you'll need to charge 3 at once just in case you only get 8hrs from one [if I'm not using it they last longer]. If you've got one in the radio you'll need to do that during the 8hrs of sunlight. It should allow plenty of redundancy. I noticed that you can pick up BF-888's that come with a USB charger which is handy and only a couple of bucks more, so included that and a bigger solar panel that's better priced [great find!]. I've listed a similar kit for the UV-5R below using the USB adapters and you'll probably only need 2 spare batteries as their capacity is higher and they use similar current drains, also since most people already have them. Obviously there's lots of uses for these, bug out bag, hunting, hiking, back of the car or setting up kits for friends or neighbors in an emergency situation. USB Radio BF-888
| 1
| $24.55 | | Spare Radio battery | 3
| $11.87 | | 10W folding charger | 1
| | Extra USB chargers | 2
| $7.60 | | 4 USB hub | 1
| $1.43
| | Radio total |
| $70.92 |
=================== USB Radio UV-5R 1 $45 Spare Radio battery 2 $28 1 10W folding charger 1 $25.47 USB adapters 2 $14.20 4 USB hub 1 $1.43 Radio total $114.10 =============================== You could add in some USB chargers AA/AAA chargers and Eneloop [long storage life recharable] batteries for a secondary charging station for them too or with the additional power you get during 3/4 of the year or if say if you're just looking to charge batteries for lights or something similar it would do the trick also with about at least [winter] 24Wh of power which is about 18AAA or 7AA batteries a day. 3 times that in summer. For my kits I've included AAA batteries with these adapters, though the AAA's are my standard battery [for torches]  |
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Post by graynomad on Apr 12, 2016 14:33:17 GMT 10
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Apr 13, 2016 11:43:33 GMT 10
That 12V 10W folding charger appears to have a USB output, does that mean it's regulated to ~5v? If not it would be an accident waiting to happen wouldn't it?  Absolutely and I would agree with you, they NEED to be regulated. I would suspect it is and I'll test it out when it arrives. Even if it's not DC-DC converters are about $1 ea.  The pic from the ebay page shows it a little low if anything at 12.31V is about 70% charge, so if it were regulated at that the battery could never go over 12.3 and probably be a bit lower. If it's not regulated for a car battery, it doesn't matter too much it's 0.83A at best, which versus a 45AmpH car battery is pretty subdued on charging so excess energy won't be boiling off the electrolyte killing the battery. Lead Acid batteries [at least at low current] are fine with a bit of over voltage, as you have hinted at, Lithium Ion [those in the radios] are 'not', which is why you need a specific voltage. Whilst you can certainly go that way, might suit your application perfectly, the standard [and slightly better priced] units don't have USB charges with them. I already have 2x 888 and 3x UV5's. I prefer the 888s now only because of the basic coding of your transmissions, very simple for the inexperienced to use [turn on, turn knob to change channel] and cheaper per unit price. It helps that I already have 3 UV5s. The advantage of the UV5s is that they can be programmed manually [though it's a pain] and a longer life battery. Yes that cable does both. It might be a fake because it doesn't have Baofeng written on it, though from what I understand it doesn't matter with the latest software out there. I can't get CHIRP to work with the 888s as you need to change the frequency range it covers to Aus frequencies [470-490Mhz not the standard 400-470Mhz], but I had no issues with the official software for it. Once you set it up, you can program the radios in less than 1 min and change just as easily [assuming you have other set ups] as needed. If your radio frequencies were compromised, it would be a quick way to switch frequencies. Thinking on this, I did get a $20 laptop [runs xp lol] that I'll set up to do this job as part of my base kit. ---------------- I'm wanting to add a portable antenna that you can string up in a tree or similar for better line of sight [range], it's just a bit of coax [or ribbon I suppose] and wire of the right length really, still a bit to learn there. Once you have a set up |
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Apr 21, 2016 12:02:02 GMT 10
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Apr 23, 2016 16:58:25 GMT 10
Boost your CB antenna output for cents.
If you add a 15cm [about right for 477mhz aka UHF] piece of wire to the back screw for the belt clip, nearest the antenna [it's grounded with the antenna I checked on 888] you'll make yourself up a quick and easy 1/4 wave dipole antenna giving you more db [potentially range] for the same power usage. Make sure you measure the distance poking out after you've wrapped it around the screw [or however you affix it], easy done by snipping after it's made. The vid explains how to do it fairly well, though you could even just use a piece of wire as is.
I don't claim to be an antenna expert, it is a challenging field to learn and understand well, it seem the more time I put into understanding it, the more complex it becomes. There's no reinventing the wheel here, a dipole is a very common antenna and it should give you better outputs and what would be even better still is getting the antenna up higher as it's all about line of sight, similar to mobile phones. [at least at UHF freq]
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myrrph
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Post by myrrph on Apr 23, 2016 22:33:02 GMT 10
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Apr 24, 2016 5:12:59 GMT 10
A little off topic, though I'll happily bite.
Batteries.
If it were about emergency power [to which I have my own for], I would suggest you look around for 'good' lead acid that are pulled out of service within a few years and expect to pay about $1AUD/1Ah = $1AUD/12Wh. We have those used in fire pumps/telecommunications and they are replaced after a few years due to the critical nature of them and they're almost always kept fully charged. That is they're close to new in number of cycles left in them, aka duration of service. A load tester helps to know their condition [it's not perfect!] a timed load tester and volt check would be best but not really doable if you're buying them and a voltmeter shows if they have dead cells and gives you another idea, in that batteries that are newer usually show a slightly higher voltage. [again not perfect] Though learn and do your research independently if you go this way as there IS risks of buying something bad.
If you buy new, expect to pay about triple the above prices for new, so about $2400AUD. Last time I was in Singapore we were close to parity, so I think $10k is too much. Sometimes you can find rather good prices on forklift batteries also.
I got a deal from a friend for a bank of a similar size for about $450.
The tesla batteries 'are' better in that they can be ran further that is you can get close to the 10kwh [8-9kwh] out of them as opposed to about 5kwh out of the 10kwh lead acid. They also guarantee a life of 10years. [if they're run flat they will 'just' make that, though the life of batteries is a science that even the experts are having troubles understanding if I understand the reading I've done on it]. In this country the main use envisioned is for off-peak power supply storage which is considerably cheaper, though the returns would be at least 20 years on the investment. I would also double check those prices as that might not be with installation and so on, over here I heard it was about $15k for the 6kwh.
Nickel Iron batteries apparently last a lifetime as there's no eroding of cathode or anode and have their downsides and expect to pay about 8 times the new price of lead acid. You can run them flat, leave them for a decade, empty them and then fill them up with electrolyte and they'll work! Best off grid batteries around, even after 80 years they work and have 80% of their capacity. I've heard rumors that the Chinese batteries are just plated, though that might just be a rumor.
In the balance of things, and as a prepper you've got to weight up your options. You could spend $5k [20kwh emergency use, 10kwh daily usable] on a new lead acid system that will last about 10 years, 1/3 of that if you go second hand. In 10 years I would absolutely believe battery technology will improve and/or pricing will come down dramatically. The question might also be, do you need that capacity? I have it, but that's mostly about opportunity in obtaining it, I'm not planning to run the fridge, though I could run lights, charge radios and laptops easily. I could run a single radio that would draw less energy than their daily self discharge rate lol.
Panels
Whilst it's cool that they're doing panels that roll up, the cost is $730[USD?] for what I assume is a 40W panel and some level of battery back up. If you're moving around, 'maybe', though there's plenty of other options already. If it's for home, 40W panels go for $60AUD and a 80Wh [12Ah Gel Lead Acid] battery as used in UPS' are $30AUD, throw in a regulator for $10 and you have a $100 system I would bet you would be just as capable, albeit a little less portable.
If portable you're after, then I'd check out ebay as they do fold up panels that would suit your needs and if you needed the battery bank also, plenty of lighter banks available. Go for 'known' brands here as there's lots of fakes for your phone type recharge bank.
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Apr 28, 2016 17:34:48 GMT 10
 There you go, 1 radio/electronics kit ready for a BOB etc. Note the cheap watch to allow for timed comms/meeting times and this panel is 6W. I've still got a few little things to add that I am waiting for such as the AAA battery converters and I was supposed to include 6x AAA alkaline batteries as redundancy for the head lamp, I forgot to put in the wire for the loose wire to make the radio work as a proper diapole as shown above. My medical kit also has AAA batteries for the torch and heck the radio has a torch if I really need a third one. I'll have to get into the kits every 6 months to charge the radio batteries to keep them in good condition. I'm still working on other antenna options for the radio to give it a bit more options for range, the current thinking [that could change with the next piece of info] is a home built diapole with coaxial lead that you can sling up trees and a longer antenna to go full half wave, which I have one of but again didn't drag it out. Waiting on a couple of options to show up and then I'll probably try them out. |
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myrrph
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Post by myrrph on Apr 28, 2016 18:41:53 GMT 10
gotta check the hubs. would the 5V 0.5A be sufficient to charge the batteries?
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Apr 28, 2016 20:48:16 GMT 10
You've definitely got a point there I hadn't considered and the short answer is yep, no issues.
If you want an explanation, lets poke at it.
The chargers 'are' usb compatible that is they have a max current of 2.5W. 2.5W charges them up in about 2.5hrs. According to USB2.0 specs, 5v@0.5A = 2.5W and that's supposed to be the max 'per' port, to which would do the the job. Let me explain.
A 6W panel produces a 'max' of 6W, though typically it's less than that, depending on the sun's brightness. During summer you'll get close to that on a good day at least intermittently. The average, at least down here in Victoria is about 6.5 full solar hours, so 6.5x6W = 39Wh/day. Now if the If the panel is charging at 2.5W, it will take about 2.5hrs or so to fully charge the battery, so no issues there. A solar cell works 'kind of' like a battery/capacitor, in that it can be in the sun and it doesn't care if you draw current or not. So if it's only drawing 2.5W of a maximum of 6W, it won't matter.
During the worst part of winter with less hours and less intense sunlight you'll get a 'total' of 2.4 full solar hours per day. That's spread out during the whole day and on average. So days will be better, some worse. If it's out there all day, you'll be making 14.4Wh [10W panels make 24Wh] for the whole day and lets say it's about 8hrs of sun, you can see that we're making about 1.5W in total. If I've got 2 chargers plugged in, then it's only .75W on average, well under it's capacity and it might also take half the day to charge.
I also suspect that a cheapo unit like this would have to be able to handle a total of 10W in total [500ma/channel] and they will probably just wire it parallel so that it's the total current that can be drawn, though no tested data to be sure and it's easily enough to stick a multimeter on there if I'm willing to sacrifice an USB extension cable, though like I've shown, there's no issues, worst case scenario, it'll take 2.5hrs to charge.
The UV5R units store more energy, and the 3800ah batteries even more, so will take longer to charge, though again 2.5W will get them charged up. The worst case might be a couple of days for the 3800ah, though they might last 3-5 days.
The above figures show that it's hardly of concern. Never the less, it's something I hadn't thought about, so thanks for the question.
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Post by familyprepper on May 2, 2016 6:49:14 GMT 10
I've personally seen your Comms kit and its great
I will be stealing your ideas shiney
Just have to get a few radios
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shinester
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Post by shinester on May 19, 2016 20:45:06 GMT 10
A way of monitoring and checking battery condition [or lies about capacities from Chinese sellers lol]. I'm trying it out with my phone right now actually.  It could also be used with the USB chargers above to monitor power usage of units [the charger uses a little itself] if it's hooked up to a larger battery bank/wall socket, so you can calculate power useage of various equipment. It's much like a 'power consumption meter' as used in your house for monitor appliance power usage but for USB. The one above is a bit more precise and cost $20, though you can pick them up reasonably accurate for $4. Whilst you wouldn't need one for every unit, and you probably don't need one at all , if you were putting together a larger system, you might want one as part of a maintenance kit. Some other items that might be included are spare batteries, antennas, chargers and a means of programming for easy channel changing which consists of any laptop with USB [mine cost me $20] and programming cables.
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shinester
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China's white trash
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Post by shinester on Nov 16, 2016 22:02:23 GMT 10
Another item I've added to the kit is a large zip lock bag so I can charge them in the rain. Ebay have them, pretty cheap $1ea or so.  |
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Post by familyprepper on Nov 17, 2016 5:57:25 GMT 10
 Could you use something like this being recharged while your bush walking from solar and then use that to charge uhf later |
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Nov 17, 2016 13:38:21 GMT 10
You can and sure. I'd rather charge a CB radio battery directly myself because it's one less item and you get transmission losses at each step. That is you lose energy when you charge the bank from the solar, you lose energy when you then charge the CB radio battery, better you only have the losses from solar to CB radio battery. You also have to be 'really' careful about battery banks as almost all of them have fake/nonsense ratings. It all depends of course on your situation. My kits are for small individual backpacks so I'm trying to keep everything to a minimum, you might have different criteria.
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