paranoia
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Post by paranoia on Feb 24, 2017 12:08:45 GMT 10
At the request of shiny I thought I'd do a up post on the story behind my experimental garden and give a explanation on the concepts as I see them. Probably going to end up a bit long but without understanding the 'why' behind the garden, the 'what' makes very little sense.
About 5-6 years ago I was getting really into producing my own food. I was playing mostly with hydroponics and raised beds. Both methods had their problems and were both labour intensive and resource intensive. As someone who enjoys nature I always looked in the bush and in rain forests noticing a lack of a need for fertiliser, pesticides, fungicides ect... I was reading books on gardening, farming, hydoponics, aquaponics and permaculture to find the solution.
Aquaponics is very promising, I've set up a few systems with good results but they're still plagued by fish food and electricity inputs, they also require maintenance. The concept however is sound, establish an ecosystem that recycles unwanted outputs into inputs. I found permaculture and no-till gardening, it promised abundance for little effort and inputs. The claim being made is that without disturbing the soil and focusing on biology you can eliminate inputs to the soil and grow 'as nature would'. There's a lot of magical thinking in the permaculture community as it attracts a lot of 'alternative' types. I set out to understand what was going on from a biology standpoint and at every turn it seemed to support no-till.
I started this garden a few months after securing land in the spring of 2013 to explore a hands off 'as nature would' system to see if these theoretical ideas showed true in reality. This is a small trial plot (15m x 15m) that I dream of implementing on a much larger scale (5-20 acres) so all decisions are made on that basis and methods need to be scalable. In a typical year I only get 350mm rainfall so I need to rely on things like dew capture, rock moisture traps and heavy mulches to keep things going but will be aiming for 600-800mm for the next one.
I started the garden by digging trenches and interesting shapes in the ground, somewhere for water to collect so it didn't just run off whenever I got rain. I then sew seeds by hand throwing them in as many different areas as possible. Species selection is done by utility and its ability to grow in 'poor' soils as I started with a heavy sandy clay. Weeds and old plant stalks are never removed from the garden but cut just above the soil with secateurs if unwanted or I get in with the wipper snipper if a larger area is to be re-seeded.
Dense plantings support each other by acting as a 'living mulch' keeping the soil covered and the moisture loss to a minimum.
The large leaf plants in the middle are arrow root, they generate a lot of mulch up top and collect a lot of moisture with the large surface area. The Kale and chard seems to grow really well at its base.
I put large rocks around the base of my trees and 'important' plants, these sweat moisture (same way your car is always covered in dew in the morning) releasing it to the plant. This pomegranate has been growing really well despite looking quite dead when we had our heat in December.
Green line shows where the original plot was planted out. All the mustard, rocket & sweet alice in the foreground has blown over by the wind.
The arrow root on the left is on a hill and the chard has found a trench. Has been growing very well despite the hot weather and not being watered.
You can also see the kale in the far left seems to be growing in a row parallel to the arrowroot, this is another trench.
FAQ
Why is tilling/digging so bad for the soil? It Kills the fungus in the soil and moves it towards a more bacterially dominated environment. Soil fungus creates the soil structure, it helps move water and nutrients to where they are needed and breaks down the organic matter setting them into much more stable humic acids. Weeds are a symptom of bacterial dominate soils, not a problem in themselves. I've seen weed pressure significantly reduce as my organic matter and fungal structure has gone up.
Why don't I need to add fertilizer inputs? In a living soil you don't need to 'feed' the plants as they can get it themselves. If a healthy plant needs specific nutrients not available in the soil around them they release exudates from the roots (mostly sugar) which is a bacteria food specific to the nutrient they lack. The bacteria have the ability to break up the minerals and clays releasing 'locked' nutrients in the soil for consumption. These bacteria attract the soil mesofauna to consume the bacteria releasing the nutrients that were initially unavailable to the plant. Now I've over simplified this but the basic idea is a plant controls the soil nutrients around the root zone by feeding the soil the sugars it creates in its leaves.
What's with all the flowers? Not only do flowers feed the bee's and promote pollinators, many of them promote insects that attack pests. By having specific families of flower you encourage these 'protector' insects and eliminate the need for pesticides. There are also flowers like nasturtiums and marigolds that emit scents that deter pests (this is more contentious) but I've had good results companion planting both of these between tomatoes, capsicums, eggplants...
What's so good about self seeded plants? I try to establish a 'seed bank' in the soil with the idea that if they're in the right spot and the right time of year, they'll grow. Also given my approach to neglecting these plants, only plants that are adapted to the area make it to maturity so the seeds get more selected for my specific climate conditions every season. This creates varieties that require even less water/nutrients to create food and moves away from the high nutrient, chemical requiring cultivars grown more widely.
Well that will do for now, I'm sure most peoples eyes will have glazed over as tends to happen when I show people around the patch. Feel free to ask any questions... you may have noticed I like talking about this stuff.
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paranoia
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Post by paranoia on Feb 24, 2017 12:14:44 GMT 10
and a couple photos from the other thread for those that didn't see them.
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paranoia
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Post by paranoia on Feb 24, 2017 13:19:12 GMT 10
For those interested in the topic further. 'Building Soil Health' by Dr. Elaine Ingham was a talk given at the Permaculture Voices 1 conference a few years back and I feel it to be the best introduction to practical soil biology I've found.
Do yourself a favour and give up the hour to listen to it, will change the way you view soil.
www.permaculturevoices.com/building-soil-health-by-dr-elaine-ingham-pvp096/
Direct mp3 download link - Building Soil Health - PV096
Intro is only about 5 minutes long then its straight into the talk.
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Feb 24, 2017 13:29:48 GMT 10
This is fantastic bud. Glazed eyes for me are a sign that I'm learning something ---------- Yields Q1. - I know this is a test plot, I'm wondering if you've tracked the output for this area or if you have even harvested. Plant selectionQ2a - Companion planting? I've got some charts on this, though I'm not sure I understand it properly, what is it's purpose [besides insects] Q2b - What flower groups encourage predatory insects? Q2c - Nitrogen/Legume soil enrichement - do you use such plants to encourage soil nitrogen. TrenchesQ3a - Trenches - is this using the permaculture idea of running channels so that water takes a long path down slopes? Q3b - Do these trenches maintain themselves, do you need to re-dig them from time to time? Q3c - Are there trenches all throughout the plot after this time or has it all flattened out? Q3d - Do you fill the trenches with organic material to work as a kind of wick/core? Animal Tractors/grazingQ4 - in your other thread you mentioned about chickens. What are their role [if any] in the cycle? Q5 - could you let animals such as pigs or chickens tear up the area and watch it reseed. MaintanceQ5a - you mentioned pulling up plants you didn't want, is that a regular occurrence, how much labor do you put into it? Q5b - do you compost and use that over the area to keep the nutrients within the cycle of what you take out?
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paranoia
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Post by paranoia on Feb 24, 2017 14:20:53 GMT 10
Yields Q1. - I know this is a test plot, I'm wondering if you've tracked the output for this area or if you have even harvested.
No tracking whatsoever. I've harvested 40 decent sized Queensland blue pumpkins last summer , 5kg of broad beans over the preceding winter/spring, various tomatoes, zucchinis, kale, chard, lettuce, kohlrabi, carrots... Lots and lots of chicken food in the form of rocket, greens, sunflowers. The flowers have probably helped the honey production also. In the first year or two its definitely less productive than a highly managed and fertilized raised bed. On the other hand, something is happening... the soil is improving, weeds are appearing less than in my traditional beds and the kale was MUCH stronger and leafier than on the other side of the house. Plant selection Q2a - Companion planting? I've got some charts on this, though I'm not sure I understand it properly, what is it's purpose [besides insects]This is a big one. Many different plants affect the surrounding area in a positive way and they usually have deeper or shallower root systems, using different areas of the growing environment and different nutrients. There's a native American group of companion plants which are simplified into 'three sisters' traditionally corn, beans and squash. The corn provides structure for the beans to grow on, the beans fix nitrogen from the air and bring it into the soil for use by the other plants, the squash covers the soil giving you a living mulch and increasing the humidity. I think people simplify these things too much and tend to not put something in until they think they understand the exact function a plant is going to perform in their system. I like as much diversity as possible as you never know what will perform in your area or system. I avoid sticking to companion planting recipes and just do my own thing, you'll quickly see what works well and its not always what's written in the companion planting books from my experience. You might be solving an issue for a plant that is so specific to your exact system/climate and the charts never seem to say what sort of a climate it was shown to be effective in. The other advantage to companion planting is you try to never have 2 plants of the same type next to each other. This way if you ever have pest issues it doesn't become an outbreak. Mono-culture planting creates so many issues due to competition/pests that just having diversity is an advantage in itself. Q2b - What flower groups encourage predatory insects?
Asters, clovers, marigolds. Look to 'bug mixes' online and see what seeds they're including. greenharvest.com.au/SeedOrganic/FlowerSeeds/GoodBugMix.html I have most of the species in this mix sewn individually in bulk. Carrots are a good aster substitute but you need to have them in flower. Q2c - Nitrogen/Legume soil enrichement - do you use such plants to encourage soil nitrogen.
I sew broad beans every autumn and they generate a lot of organic matter, fix nitrogen and produce a good crop without water or maintenance. I use a slower growing squat variety called 'coles dwarf' very wind resistant which is handy for me. I also use red clovers year round. Have tried beans/peas but they're not suited to my rainfall. Trenches Q3a - Trenches - is this using the permaculture idea of running channels so that water takes a long path down slopes?
Similar concept to swales in that they're good for restricting run-off but they're mostly for diversity of environment. They also increase the surface area on top of the soil and thus increase growing area. Q3b - Do these trenches maintain themselves, do you need to re-dig them from time to time?
Some were as shallow as 10cm, others up to 30cm deep. I've not had to re-dig anything. Even 5cm would be deep enough to catch the rain, I'm simply trying to give it more time to soak in. Q3c - Are there trenches all throughout the plot after this time or has it all flattened out?
The raised bits have flatted out maybe 10-20% but that happened within 6 months. Q3d - Do you fill the trenches with organic material to work as a kind of wick/core?
They fill themselves with organic matter. I did initially cover the whole area with mulch but that's long gone and my 'mulch layer' is just old plants. Animal Tractors/grazing Q4 - in your other thread you mentioned about chickens. What are their role [if any] in the cycle? I've been using the chickens as a way of turning a lot of the extra greens into eggs. They're also helping me expand the patch at the moment but that's only started about 6 months ago. They're in temporary fencing that I just move a meter or so every month. Soon as the chickens are taken off the area the mustard/rocket/lucern/clover seems to spring to life. Q5 - could you let animals such as pigs or chickens tear up the area and watch it reseed.
Yes but you would need to control them to a small area, let them 'destroy it' then move them on. Just like if you were cell grazing sheep or cattle. Maintance Q5a - you mentioned pulling up plants you didn't want, is that a regular occurrence, how much labor do you put into it? As it started as a weedy field it was a lot of work initially. We had particular issues with heliotrope europium (potato weed). These days I don't. Weed pressure has almost disappeared and instead of weeds I get kale, chard, clover, rocket and mustard. Q5b - do you compost and use that over the area to keep the nutrients within the cycle of what you take out? I don't use compost on the area. I also never remove organic matter from the area that isn't a vegetable or leafy green. I occasionally bring in grass cuttings from other parts of the garden but that's it for inputs. I'm really trying to see how long I can take it without 'replacing' nutrients. Output has only been increasing.
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paranoia
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Post by paranoia on Feb 24, 2017 14:27:00 GMT 10
Thanks for taking the time to post this thread Paranoia. I like the concept of a garden that basically looks after itself. Would be ideal for my retreat, as I only visit there every 4 to 6 weeks. I'm wondering if the local wildlife might decimate my garden if I dont fence it properly. Have you had any issues in this regard? No worries mate, I love this stuff.
I don't have a lot of 'wildlife' around me. It's a very cleared area with minimal nature strips, mostly cattle and sheep around here, butted up against a lake.
Initially I had a lot of problems with rabbits but we're sorting that out and things have been getting better. When I had sheep I got almost no kale/chard out of the garden but still pulled pumpkins/broadbeans. All depends on which wildlife and which plants I think. I did have some success using badly stacked rocks to keep the sheep away from a couple spots.
My long term goal when I do get my retreat style property is to just make it so big that any issues with wildlife are cancelled out by having enough to go around.
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paranoia
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Post by paranoia on Feb 24, 2017 14:45:41 GMT 10
My place has wombats, rabbits, roos and goats in residence. And plenty of ducks at times. I think I might fence a small section and see how I go. Yeah particularly whilst being established the goats/roos would run your day pretty quick. Fences are always a good idea.
The other way to go is to seed a living fence (if you've got the 5 years that is). Something like black locust or trifoliate orange (flying dragon) seeded densely as a good spikey fence. I've always imagined doing this for a perimeter to eliminate fence hopping but could work in a smaller area to keep out wildlife.
If you've got the cash and want quick results however nothing beats a well built fence.
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gasman
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Post by gasman on Feb 24, 2017 18:11:18 GMT 10
Great thread and very interesting We have success with potatoes sweet potatoe pumpkin and squash self seeding here- can't get rid of potatoes in fact Here in Vic -rainfall 60" per year Pigs have tilled the soil and I have planted vegetables after moving them to other paddocks- they are better than tractors for ploughing paddocks ready for planting Goes against a lot of what you said but they get rid of all weeds/ grasses and gives u a clean slate for planting Planting grains in the paddocks this year so see how that goes
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Post by jo on Feb 26, 2017 14:49:18 GMT 10
Awesome post Para thanks for taking the time to share
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paranoia
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Post by paranoia on Feb 27, 2017 0:10:19 GMT 10
Great thread and very interesting We have success with potatoes sweet potatoe pumpkin and squash self seeding here- can't get rid of potatoes in fact Here in Vic -rainfall 60" per year Pigs have tilled the soil and I have planted vegetables after moving them to other paddocks- they are better than tractors for ploughing paddocks ready for planting Goes against a lot of what you said but they get rid of all weeds/ grasses and gives u a clean slate for planting Planting grains in the paddocks this year so see how that goes
Doesn't completely go against what I have said as we may be aiming for different things. I sort of glossed over a few details and I have an eye for long term 'forest' type production in this bed.
"It Kills the fungus in the soil and moves it towards a more bacterially dominated environment"
If you have healthy soil, moving it towards bacterial dominance doesn't hurt but changes what will grow well. Many ground crops such as brassicas will struggle if you've a more fungal dominant soil and a little bit of tilling can be of benefit. So long as you use smaller paddocks and give the land time to rest between cycles you'll keep healthy soil.
You would on the other hand struggle with traditionally forest dwelling plants such as strawberries & blueberries. All plants have very specific requirements based on the environment they evolved to suit and should be planted accordingly. To my mind, to have a small section of your land set aside with the intention of raising the organic matter, avoiding tillage and having that fungal environment would be idea. Key is just to know what you're growing and what it likes. I used to have a chart that specified if crops liked bacterial dominant or fungal dominant soil that I cant find at the moment but you can google the plant in question and will usually get a quick answer.
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blueshoes
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Post by blueshoes on Feb 27, 2017 12:36:47 GMT 10
Have you thought about growing cape gooseberries?
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paranoia
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Post by paranoia on Feb 27, 2017 13:01:29 GMT 10
Have you thought about growing cape gooseberries? I hadn't... I've seen them on Daleys fruit ( www.daleysfruit.com.au/ Highly recommended by the way, many successful orders and unique trees ) but they're listed as subtropical.
Are you aware of any warm temperate cultivars? I'd need to finish my pond to establish a subtropical microclimate before I think I'd be successful... I'm sure I could but the extra work trying to maintain humidity is usually too much.
Do you have any experience with them?
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blueshoes
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Post by blueshoes on Feb 27, 2017 14:31:35 GMT 10
Have you thought about growing cape gooseberries? I hadn't... I've seen them on Daleys fruit ( www.daleysfruit.com.au/ Highly recommended by the way, many successful orders and unique trees ) but they're listed as subtropical.
Are you aware of any warm temperate cultivars? I'd need to finish my pond to establish a subtropical microclimate before I think I'd be successful... I'm sure I could but the extra work trying to maintain humidity is usually too much.
Do you have any experience with them?
I grew the Daleys cultivar in Adelaide and got fruit, biggest problems were keeping em under control and leaf rust. Apparently they grow wild in parts of NSW, biggest problem is that they grow to huge bushes (3m diameter?) And they self seed really well... i think the leaf rust was because it was pot bound and not healthy, the plant was triple the diameter of the pot.
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Post by Peter on Feb 28, 2017 22:14:36 GMT 10
paranoia, thanks so much for this thread. Great stuff from which I'm sure we all can learn.
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paranoia
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Post by paranoia on Feb 28, 2017 22:24:44 GMT 10
I hadn't... I've seen them on Daleys fruit ( www.daleysfruit.com.au/ Highly recommended by the way, many successful orders and unique trees ) but they're listed as subtropical.
Are you aware of any warm temperate cultivars? I'd need to finish my pond to establish a subtropical microclimate before I think I'd be successful... I'm sure I could but the extra work trying to maintain humidity is usually too much.
Do you have any experience with them?
I grew the Daleys cultivar in Adelaide and got fruit, biggest problems were keeping em under control and leaf rust. Apparently they grow wild in parts of NSW, biggest problem is that they grow to huge bushes (3m diameter?) And they self seed really well... i think the leaf rust was because it was pot bound and not healthy, the plant was triple the diameter of the pot.
I'm guessing if you're getting rust you're managing to get a much higher humidity than I can usually manage around here. Despite this, I'd still be willing to give it a go, my goji berry is still hanging on despite my forgetting about it a couple times this summer and if I gave the cape a slightly shaded spot it may work...
Do you still have it?? perhaps you could bring me a couple cuttings (just wrapped in wet newspaper) next time we meet?
If it is as vigorous as you say maybe thinning it out to get more ventilation could help with the rust once you got it into a more appropriate spot.
Thanks for the kind words, Peter & Jo, you're both very welcome.
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blueshoes
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Post by blueshoes on Aug 5, 2019 14:39:41 GMT 10
Hey paranoia any updates? You've been quiet lately and I for one have really missed your input. When you do post you have good stuff to say. I know you've changed my mind about a few things Are you still growing arrowroot? How fast does it grow?
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Post by herbgarden on Dec 7, 2019 17:33:54 GMT 10
paranoia Would love to hear/see an update on the experimental patch if you are still online.
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