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Post by Peter on Mar 17, 2017 22:26:07 GMT 10
I'm thinking out loud here, so please bear with me...
I've always maintained that simply washing fermentation containers - rather than using potent sterilizing agents - is adequate, as fermenting techniques were developed centuries before such sterilizers as chlorine and sodium metabisulphate were available. Logically, this would seem to be correct.
However, I've had a few batches of fermented items turn bad over the last few months. Is this to do with sterilization? Is it an impurity in the salt I use? Is it the result of substandard ingredients? Is my water filter removing chlorine from tap water as it claims to? I simply don't know.
I'll be testing this in the coming months I'll test this - I'll be splitting batches of ferments between containers that are thoroughly sterilized and those that are simply washed - and I'll post on my findings. I'll also test different salts, and monitor ingredients that I use.
I value any input on the topic in the hope we can all learn more about this ancient method of food preservation. Many cultures wouldn't have survived had fermentation not been discovered, but perhaps there's a place for modern technology in this.
We also need to look at options available should the modern technologies not be available...
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fei
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Post by fei on Mar 17, 2017 22:42:16 GMT 10
Not sure about this subject, but when I saw the title of your post, I thought it was going to be the need for enforced sterilization of a certain portion of the population.  |
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paranoia
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Post by paranoia on Mar 17, 2017 23:13:39 GMT 10
Curious what you mean by 'simply washing' is this just at 40 degrees in the sink with soap? 65 degrees in the dishwasher? Also, what do you mean by 'go bad'... Did you get an unwanted yeast? or mold? what colour mold? How big was the air-gap between the product and lid? What was the product you were fermenting? I've thought about this a bit and figured I could autoclave in the pressure canner on the fire (I've got a stainless steel bbq grill raised over a brick fire pit). We currently bake our glass jars in the oven after hand washing and rinsing to sterilise them... this could work if I finally got around to building that wood fired oven. Though I understand the importance it had, I've never looked into any of these ancient fermentation techniques. I wonder if there was a process of sterilization in any of their systems we could utilise, further reading required to be sure. I look forward to your experiments.  |
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tomatoes
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Post by tomatoes on Mar 18, 2017 7:46:44 GMT 10
When I need to sterilise jars I wash them by hand and put them on a tray with newspaper under in the oven.
I would do this if making fermented products as I would expect that you could get competing bacteria, but I haven't dabbled in fermented food yet apart from vinegar from pear peels. I would not be inclined to use chemical sterilisation just incase trace amounts of chemicals stopped the fermentation process.
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Post by Peter on Mar 18, 2017 9:13:42 GMT 10
Now this is interesting... I always avoid any salt with anticaking agents. I've always had consistently good results with Celtic sea salt, sea salt, and normal white salt flakes (except one batch of brined carrots a while back).
The common denominators amongst the fails? Lack of sterilisation, and batches using Himalayan pink salt haven't had proper fermentation occur. I've heard of its suitability from a number of sources - and I've had some successes, but I now need to question this.
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Mar 18, 2017 10:17:54 GMT 10
I have no idea on fermentation, I do have some ideas on pathogens.
Indeed as already mentioned with the use of heat, if you heated up the containers past 125C you would kill every known pathogen. Think about a camp oven or large soup pot that works as an oven, I did just that experimenting making bread with a soup pot and alcohol stove . The autoclave idea is sound of course, though I'm thinking simply and heat would do the job. Now of course there's spores floating around in the air, so you would want to minimize that possibility, you might boil the water instead [will evaporate the chlorine no problem] of filtering and keep the lid on the pot until ready to use.
Some other ideas, detergent very much makes fat dissolve in water and all pathogens have an outer fatty [lipid] layer which is why they 'pop' in detergent. You have to make sure there's no protective layer as can build up with colonies [kind of like a skin] though removing the crusty bits is all that is needed, aka normal for cleaning regimes. So that makes me suspect if you've done that, if you've soaked them, that it might be coming in from another source other than the jars/containers themselves.
On salt, I can't imagine pathogens living 'on' the salt as they'll be almost instantly dehydrated by the salt. I can't see it making any difference at all.
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feralemma
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Post by feralemma on Mar 18, 2017 11:02:27 GMT 10
Not sure about this subject, but when I saw the title of your post, I thought it was going to be the need for enforced sterilization of a certain portion of the population. Me too 😂😂 |
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Post by Peter on Mar 18, 2017 11:51:33 GMT 10
On salt, I can't imagine pathogens living 'on' the salt as they'll be almost instantly dehydrated by the salt. I can't see it making any difference at all. I'm more curious about the composition of the salt - is there enough impurity in the pink salt to affect its effect on undesirable bacteria? That's one thing I'll be looking into when I get home over the next few evenings. |
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Post by frontsight on Mar 21, 2017 11:06:32 GMT 10
Hi Peter. Can you describe exactly how you prep the culture and medium/ ingredients? I used to run a certified micro lab. It is pretty easy to contaminate our medium even in the lab. The same goes for the brewing and fementated dairy product industries. We just write off a big batch and keep quiet about it. |
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mozzie101
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Post by mozzie101 on Mar 21, 2017 11:18:46 GMT 10
Not sure about this subject, but when I saw the title of your post, I thought it was going to be the need for enforced sterilization of a certain portion of the population. You and me both. |
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Mar 21, 2017 15:24:57 GMT 10
We just write off a big batch and keep quiet about it. Extra cycle cleaning process Good to get a professional perspective, ie. Peter's doing fine |
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Post by Peter on Mar 21, 2017 17:42:46 GMT 10
Hi Peter. Can you describe exactly how you prep the culture and medium/ ingredients? I used to run a certified micro lab. It is pretty easy to contaminate our medium even in the lab. The same goes for the brewing and fementated dairy product industries. We just write off a big batch and keep quiet about it. Sure - the equipment is all washed thoroughly at around 40C with detergent, then rinsed in water at a similar temperature. Depending on time available, it either drains dry or I use a clean tea-towel to dry it. Salt isn't treated, because I can't see it bringing any living problems. The vegetable has any outer leaves removed, and is then sliced/chopped and rubbed thoroughly with salt (around 600g veg to 10g salt). Alternately, bottled or boiled water (ie chlorine free) is mixed with salt to 3.5% salt solution, then it's poured over the veg when cool enough. For brewing, however, out comes the sodium metabisulphate. As it will for some upcoming controlled tests on various techniques that I hope to start just after Easter. |
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Post by frontsight on Mar 21, 2017 22:35:06 GMT 10
Ah ok, so no starter culture and you use salt to suppress anything other than LAB (lactic acid bacteria). Yeah, many people do that and it should work but there are a few things to watch out for.
1) you are completely at nature's mercy, the are many kinds of salt tolerant LABs but not all will give you the right taste and some may cause spoilage, you need the right amount of salt to target just the ones you don't want growing but since we haven't worked out what you are targeting, you can only try different concentrations and pick one that works.
2) The surface of the leave is likely the source of you spoilage, more than your jars, removing outer leave helps but not that much
3) Depends on what you wanna make, many fermented foods are two/multi stage processes, one type starts the process, breaking down the food into nutrient for the next one to take over. Many people say it is Lactobacillus that they need, not always true, it is Lactobacillales (aka LAB), the order that Lactobacillus, Pediococcus and Leuconostoc (they are found in many sour foods) as well as well known Streptococcus (not all of them are pathogens, S thermophilus is used for yogurt production) belong to.... if you have only one or two present in mix, you may go nowhere.....
4) Temperature pays a big role, the yogurt production and sorghum beer production for instance, we use temperature to promote/suppress certain types of bacteria/yeast at different stages, your WA man cave may not have the right temperature to support the same culture they use in Sauerkrut in germany.
5) Natural background micro organism from where you live may have very different profile to the person who write the recipe. They are even studies done on the differences in LAB profiles from people from different parts of the world
So, all I am saying is, sometimes it just won't work even if you do everything right. To get a better chance, you need a starter culture. As preppers, buying a packet is out of question but you may wanna consider backslopping. Just chuck a bit of non pasteurized, fermented veg of the same kind in you jar next time. It is still not 100% foolproof and actually illegal for at least some manufactured food stuff in Aus but you get a better chance...
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Post by Peter on Mar 21, 2017 23:11:35 GMT 10
Ah ok, so no starter culture and you use salt to suppress anything other than LAB (lactic acid bacteria). Yeah, many people do that and it should work but there are a few things to watch out for. 1) you are completely at nature's mercy, the are many kinds of salt tolerant LABs but not all will give you the right taste and some may cause spoilage, you need the right amount of salt to target just the ones you don't want growing but since we haven't worked out what you are targeting, you can only try different concentrations and pick one that works. 2) The surface of the leave is likely the source of you spoilage, more than your jars, removing outer leave helps but not that much 3) Depends on what you wanna make, many fermented foods are two/multi stage processes, one type starts the process, breaking down the food into nutrient for the next one to take over. Many people say it is Lactobacillus that they need, not always true, it is Lactobacillales (aka LAB), the order that Lactobacillus, Pediococcus and Leuconostoc (they are found in many sour foods) as well as well known Streptococcus (not all of them are pathogens, S thermophilus is used for yogurt production) belong to.... if you have only one or two present in mix, you may go nowhere..... 4) Temperature pays a big role, the yogurt production and sorghum beer production for instance, we use temperature to promote/suppress certain types of bacteria/yeast at different stages, your WA man cave may not have the right temperature to support the same culture they use in Sauerkrut in germany. 5) Natural background micro organism from where you live may have very different profile to the person who write the recipe. They are even studies done on the differences in LAB profiles from people from different parts of the world So, all I am saying is, sometimes it just won't work even if you do everything right. To get a better chance, you need a starter culture. As preppers, buying a packet is out of the question but you may wanna consider backslopping. Just chuck a bit of non pasteurized, fermented veg of the same kind in you jar next time. It is still not 100% foolproof and actually illegal for at least some food stuff manufacture in Aus but you get a better chance... Yes, on every point. I'm trying to find consistency in my local climate, with local ingredients, in a very basic situation (ie, "wild" fermentation). I'll continue to experiment. Even if it doesn't always work out, it's fun. I'd rather learn from the failures now than post-crunch. Great points that you raise. Every one is most valid and correct. |
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Post by frontsight on Mar 21, 2017 23:24:45 GMT 10
Yeah, have a play, generally speaking if you can get the pH to drop below 4ish quick enough (you still need to reach about 3, but it can tak a bit longer from 4 to 3), you won't have major issues. I could go on and tell you about these and that pathogen but I can also suggest you to wear a full face helmet at home in case your ceiling fan comes off. Have fun!
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Post by Peter on Mar 21, 2017 23:32:33 GMT 10
That's interesting... I've never heard anyone speak of specific pH levels; I've only ever heard of the need for acidity (ie pH <7.0). I plan to read & study up over the immediate future, then experiment in as controlled an environment as I can manage at home with market-bought ingredients.
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Post by frontsight on Mar 22, 2017 9:15:43 GMT 10
Actually even some raw meat goes down to 6ish. 4.0 (some sources will say 4.5) and below is generally safe.
3ish is close to typical sauerkraut type product.
One of the better free info source is FDA. Google "fda bad bug book" or alternatively "fat tom food safety" and yoi will find lots of good info by people other than bloggers
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Post by Peter on Mar 22, 2017 20:07:21 GMT 10
Cheers for that frontsight. I'll look into that as I'll be starting a more controlled, scientific approach to food preservation. I would like to trouble you with a couple of questions if you don't mind: 1) do you know of any suitable pH test kit for testing non-liquid foods? Or is it a matter of blending/muddling/other? 2) do you know of any reference I could use to identify organisms when viewed with a microscope? While I have the device, I really don't know what I'm looking at. |
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Post by frontsight on Mar 22, 2017 21:19:04 GMT 10
Well 1) is easy, mixed with distilled water at known ratio and mash it up in a stomacher (ie, put it in a bag and beat the bag till it is mashed), blender will work but you waste more food. 2) is actually hard, most 1st (maybe 2nd and 3rd even) year food science, microbiology and medical students won't be able to do it without some serious reading up. classes.midlandstech.edu/carterp/Courses/bio225/chap10/lecture3.htm this will give you an idea of what can be done.... positive id based on morphology alone is a very specialized skill. Most of the time id is based on the the natural of food in question, maybe we will take a quick look thru the scope to see if the general shape and size, then we narrow it down to what are the common in the food in question and plate them out on selective medium. Most food labs won't bother, we just do a total count, coliform/e-coil count and a few other indicative organisms to check the general hygiene. Many food factory labs are not equipped (nor allowed to in some cases) to even test for pathogens, we just send it out to a third party lab. It is sort of like going to the doctor, the most common thing we hear is "you got some viral infection", basically it is just a cool way of saying you are sick, exactly what virus, they don't know because it is just too hard and too expensive to check and most of the time you are already much better by the time the results come out. They really only bother if you are half dying or show signs of a potentially serious infection. |
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Post by Peter on Apr 6, 2017 11:12:52 GMT 10
I've tested the 2 batches of red sauerkraut that recently had me concerned, and although heavily spiced (one has juniper, the other has caraway) they turned out well. They've got a nice "fizzy" mouth-feel which I like in proper ferments. I'm guessing that's now about 8kg worth in the fridge. The chilli ferment (in liquid brine) is also doing well, so I should be able to have some good hot sauce when I get home in about 1.5 weeks.
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