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Post by SA Hunter on Aug 2, 2020 18:00:11 GMT 10
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kelabar
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Post by kelabar on Aug 2, 2020 20:12:18 GMT 10
Looks like a promo for the book! I have long thought that if things were really bad in China then it would fix itself. There are a billion of them. If enough aren't happy then they will do something about it. Nothing wrong with a coup. If the existing political system doesn't work then something else will replace it. Fat, happy people don't give a shit. If they get dicked around a lot then things will change. Same old same old.
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bug
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Post by bug on Aug 3, 2020 8:16:55 GMT 10
Geez, have a look at the rest of this channel's videos. It's a nationalist Indian channel. Very anti-China.
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fei
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Post by fei on Aug 3, 2020 11:07:29 GMT 10
Geez, have a look at the rest of this channel's videos. It's a nationalist Indian channel. Very anti-China. Yeah, video doesn't seem too realistic to me (the stuff about China's tech companies all being connected with the PLA and the PLA going against XJP seems more like hearsay). Will look into what these generals have apparently said though.
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Post by SA Hunter on Aug 3, 2020 17:58:50 GMT 10
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Post by milspec on Aug 7, 2020 7:43:01 GMT 10
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norseman
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Post by norseman on Aug 7, 2020 9:34:42 GMT 10
I did see this the other day and thus caused me to start wondering if ole ScoMo has been blow torched by the yanks to dish up this commentary?
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kelabar
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Post by kelabar on Aug 7, 2020 9:45:29 GMT 10
Oh, god. Why do these politicians have to embarrass us so much? Do they not realise that they look like a 6 year old with their hands on their hips declaring "China should get a smack". Cringe. Hmmm, South China Sea, human rights, Hong Kong. More like 'the US owes China trillions for all the cheap stuff they bought from them'. Repaying that would be a bit inconvenient so let's have a war. That'll fix it. They might have 'Weapons of Mass Destruction'. Always enough to justify a war, even if the weapons never existed. Or maybe a trade embargo, just stop China from getting any ore, oil and rubber. Last time that happened to an Asian country things didn't go so well. But why the hell would we start to learn from history now! Plus it is a good distraction from the trashing of our country and turning it into a gulag. Slit trenches, people. Learn how to build them.
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Post by milspec on Aug 7, 2020 11:13:38 GMT 10
@kelebar your post seems defensive of China.
Do you think China isn't expanding in the South China Sea?
Do you think China isn't in conflict with India? .. and building up border forces.
Do you think China isn't already conducting cyber warfare?
Do you think China isn't expanding its cyber spying?
Do you think China isn't hurting us with trade embargoes?
Do you believe China has no intentions to reclaim Taiwan?
Do you think China doesn't have nukes?
Do you think China isn't creating political pressure or security issues with Belt & Roads?
The way I read your post is that you believe China isn't really an issue?
Personally I'm happy to see an increased public recognition of China as a serious issue which has precipitated increased military preparedness and focus on increasing manufacturing resilience/independence from China.
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kelabar
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Post by kelabar on Aug 7, 2020 11:58:39 GMT 10
No, no at all, milspec . China is no doubt doing bad things. But so are Russia and the US, maybe India I don't know. But backing anyone into a corner and having a war is the last thing we need. No one WINS a war. The victors just lose less. And since 1945 the stakes are MUCH bigger. The hypocrisy of telling China what to do on Chinese territory is a bit much. Hong Kong is now China, the lease has expired. When you sell a house do you go back a couple of weeks later and start telling the new owners what they can and can't do? And yet it is fine and 'just' to invade and slaughter thousands of Iraqis because of weapons that don't exist. Look at it from China's view, the Japanese f@cked them over big time, the Indians and Russians aren't friendly and have large armies and nukes. All on land borders or a short sea trip away. The US keeps at them all the time. Now lil Aus is strutting its stuff, yep all 100 planes and dozen ships. Oooh, threatening. It is a f@cked up mess like Europe but on a MUCH bigger scale. Because of thousands of nukes. The nasty thing about nuclear doctrine that no one mentions because it will kill us all is this: If a nuclear power is attacked and cannot defend itself it must launch a nuclear first-strike on EVERY SINGLE ONE OF ITS ENEMIES. Nasty isn't it. Also, you think, preposterous. Nope, certainty. Think about it. There really isn't another option for that country. Keep thinking about it until the little light globe appears above your head. If there was a huge explosion in Newcastle it would be called a tragedy. But if a few Lebo's get blown up, stiff shit. Congratulations, your indoctrination is complete. Goodthink. Saying "Yeah, we really showed those chinese (or insert current enemy)" when sitting on a pile of radioactive slag while you puke your insides out is I believe called a 'pyrrhic victory'. One which seems to be the inevitable outcome if things keep going as they are. No, I don't know the answer. But generally 'pulling your head in a bit' works in most situations. Unlikely to happen given human history.
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Post by milspec on Aug 7, 2020 15:01:38 GMT 10
@kelebar Ok, adressing your two points about China. 1. The UK & China signed a treaty and agreed some principles regarding HK governance before handing it back. China has now broken the terms of those agreements so thats why there is a legitimate issue with the status in HK. 2. Just because China has nukes doesn't mean that hot war will go nuclear. Whilst Australia is not a massive military force in its own right it is also not a force to be underestimated especially in an engagement being conducted over long distance with stretched logistical support. ++ US military bolstering. In addition to that we are still ranked 14th globally in GDP terms and are exporters of resources that China desires so getting us offside has material/economic impacts for China. Whilst Xi Jinping has an expansionist mindset including reunification with Taiwan if he starts making moves that will undo Chinese stability and prosperity and loses face for China, he risks getting a knife in the back. Presently India, Japan, Australia and the US are pushing back on Chinese agression for completely valid reasons. If it leads to limited war then so be it. Speaking of wars this photo I took over Syria, 4 yrs ago today popped up in my fb feed.
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Post by spinifex on Aug 7, 2020 18:13:21 GMT 10
There is a further layer of complexity in the Australia/China relationship since Chinese companies and wealthy individuals also own a LOT of Australian 'physical' assets. I expect they do not want to find themselves in a position of having those assets out of their own reach.
Having said that, US interests also control a HUGE proportion of Australian assets and business.
It's becoming a head scratching affair to find assets here that are not ultimately China/US controlled either directly or via creditors.
Anyone with a mortgage on their home might want to look into who the major share holders are in the banks who extend the credit to them. Or who actually owns all the utility providers. It's majority US and China (and a pretty big dose of investment funds also from the Oil States in the ME). They all milk our economy like a cow. I'm not sure either side really wants to jeopardise that arrangement.
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Post by milspec on Aug 8, 2020 7:43:45 GMT 10
@kelebar just expanding on your implausible nuke scenario ..Nobody is planning on destroying the Chinese state and forcing a nuclear defend the realm response. Pretty sure most nations just want China to stay within its borders and be a nice economic player rather than the greedy, manipulative, controlling, theiving shits they are presently being.
Re your earlier gulag reference if you think lockdowns are anything like the gulags you might want to actually read about what the gulags were really like. Try Gulag Archipelago. Also we haven't resorted to Chinese lockdown methods of welding the doors shut on peoples homes. Since you view China as a victim rather than aggressor, please share with us the Chinese perspective on why that was ok?
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kelabar
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Post by kelabar on Aug 8, 2020 10:14:14 GMT 10
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bug
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Post by bug on Aug 8, 2020 12:28:57 GMT 10
Nobody is backing China into a corner. All China has to do is not try to steal territory off its neighbours and not run concentration camps. They could sit back and enjoy a growing economy and prosperity. But that is not the communist way.
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captain
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Post by captain on Aug 8, 2020 20:56:25 GMT 10
Nobody is backing China into a corner. All China has to do is not try to steal territory off its neighbours and not run concentration camps. They could sit back and enjoy a growing economy and prosperity. But that is not the communist way. I don’t know if you could really call China a communist or even a socialist state anymore....Sure it may have some elements, but I think it has drifted very far from Mao’s original principles. I would say it is more capitalist based these days - capitalist individuals being lead by an authoritarian government that is embracing capitalist ideals (but still being the overlords to the people). I think the days of Chinese socialism as defined by Mao are long gone - the ideals of the people and the State have changed dramatically in the last 20 or so years. It’s all about money and power now - both at an individual and State level. That is not communism, but more of an ideology from the West.
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Post by Stealth on Aug 8, 2020 23:12:58 GMT 10
If there is nothing else to be said for China, they're patient. They will take an inch for free rather than pay for a mile because they know they'll get it in the end. And then they'll point at that inch and say "We've always had that inch! It's ours, if it wasn't ours you would have complained about it long ago" while saying nothing about the additional miles they've blagged over time.
I'd hoped to never see Australia involved in a direct war in my lifetime. I'd PRAYED to never see one in my children's lifetimes. The pessimist in me says that the gods weren't listening. The optimist in me keeps saying "Yeah but it might be ok though, right? RIGHT?" heh.
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Post by milspec on Aug 9, 2020 7:48:08 GMT 10
If there is nothing else to be said for China, they're patient. They will take an inch for free rather than pay for a mile because they know they'll get it in the end. And then they'll point at that inch and say "We've always had that inch! It's ours, if it wasn't ours you would have complained about it long ago" while saying nothing about the additional miles they've blagged over time. I'd hoped to never see Australia involved in a direct war in my lifetime. I'd PRAYED to never see one in my children's lifetimes. The pessimist in me says that the gods weren't listening. The optimist in me keeps saying "Yeah but it might be ok though, right? RIGHT?" heh. The real evils in life are greed and power and rulers keep taking more until they get a rap over the knuckles which hurts & deters them. Sometimes that rap on the knuckles is a war and sometimes it is a fine or tax when the culprit is a corporation. Aka no punishment = no restraint. The same concept is playing out with many of our younger generations to their misfortune. You can pray for no war but the pessimist in me says that just means someone somewhere is perpetrating misdeeds and building a powerbase that will result in a bigger war when it finally becomes necessary. I like to think most of us can get get along, its the ones at the top who seek/enjoy the power & money & lust for more that are the problem, that includes in capitalism and socialism IMHO.
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Post by milspec on Aug 9, 2020 8:48:29 GMT 10
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bug
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Post by bug on Aug 9, 2020 14:47:43 GMT 10
If there is nothing else to be said for China, they're patient. They will take an inch for free rather than pay for a mile because they know they'll get it in the end. And then they'll point at that inch and say "We've always had that inch! It's ours, if it wasn't ours you would have complained about it long ago" while saying nothing about the additional miles they've blagged over time. I'd hoped to never see Australia involved in a direct war in my lifetime. I'd PRAYED to never see one in my children's lifetimes. The pessimist in me says that the gods weren't listening. The optimist in me keeps saying "Yeah but it might be ok though, right? RIGHT?" heh. Yep. The CCP knows it has time on its side. All it has to do is wait for another Obama and they will go for it. They will push bit by bit over decades. It has worked well so far. No reason to stop now.
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