dirtdiva
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Post by dirtdiva on Apr 9, 2021 14:49:42 GMT 10
Isn't a vaccine meant to inoculate you from the disease? So far all i have read on these so called vaccines (emergency trial mRNA experimental gene therapies) is that they dont. It works that way for smallpox, measles, mumps and rubella, but not for covid. That's a good question lonewolf, one that would probably get you banned on Facebook or Twitter. Maybe the vaccine is ineffective because it was rushed, or maybe big pharma want a continuous new stream of profit, or maybe it's about govt control. Some Covid facts: Will the vaccine prevent you catching covid: No Will the vaccine prevent you spreading covid: No Will the vaccine prevent you dying from covid: No Can the vaccine cause life threatening side effects: Yes Can you litigate for damages if it does: No Will I ever take the vaccine: No " It works that way for smallpox, measles, mumps and rubella " Frostbite that is not necessarily true. I was vaccinated over a half century ago for small pox. Back then that was a live virus injection. According to recent data there has not been a natural outbreak of smallpox since the 70's. There is a great deal of doubt that the immunity from that vaccine is still effective in most of the population. However the vaccine managed to control the disease long enough to eradicate it unless reintroduced as a biological weapon. www.scientificamerican.com/article/i-was-vaccinated-against/www.newscientist.com/article/dn4064-smallpox-immunity-may-last-a-lifetime/Polio vaccine same thing. According to the U.S. CDC " It is not known how long people who received IPV will be immune to poliovirus, but they are most likely protected for many years after a complete series of IPV. " www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/effectiveness-duration-protection.htmlSame scenario the disease has pretty well been eradicated due to the vaccine in the U.S. population. According to the CDC : The mumps component of the MMR vaccine is about 88% (range: 32-95%) effective when a person gets two doses; one dose is about 78% (range: 49%−92%) effective. The effectiveness of Measles and Rubella are in the upper 90's range for effectiveness. The worst enemy of the vaccination program is open uncontrolled immigration. There are recent instances of some of these diseases such as polio being reintroduced from illegal immigrants from countries that do not vaccinate.
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Post by Stealth on Apr 9, 2021 15:10:35 GMT 10
So where are we going? - Nowhere fast unfortunately. I think the AZ vaccine taking bad reputation hits is just going to make all the vaccine-adverse people dig their heals in even deeper no matter which vaccine they're offered.
Where do you see state control in 12 months? - As aimless and random as it has been for the last year. Heaven help us if our state governments ever start marching in lockstep, people would keel over at any kind of implied efficiency!
Do you see an wider implications of this? - I wish I could say for certain, I suspect there's a lot of considerations that I haven't even thought of. But my biggest concern is still financial collapse (Jobkeeper ended last month, but the majority of effects won't be seen for a few months I suspect). Now that the Brazilian variant is a problem and younger folks are dying at higher rates I think we'll see the equivalent of the second wave of the Spanish Flu.
Most younger folk are inclined to take more risks in comparison to the elderly and I think Australians are particularly inclined towards 'you can't tell me what to do' behaviour. We've been so lucky in this country up until now. But something far more virulent and deadly to a group who have gotten out of it mostly unscathed gets in here and I feel like we're going to have a second wave that will ravage us. Not to mention we've learned NOTHING about emergency medical care. Ambulance ramping remains a huge problem and we're relatively pandemic-clear. What happens when that second wave does come through like a wrecking ball?
Continue to prep. That's all we can do. Protect ourselves and our families in the best way that we see fit. For my family that means that the other half and I will be vaccinated when we can. The kids will remain un-vaccinated for covid until it's recommended for children (at this stage as far as I'm aware it still isn't). Like Dirtdiva says, the chances of us dying from the vaccine seems a lot less likely than the chances of us dying from the Brazilian variant if it gets in here. If it improves our chances of surviving the illness that's better than no chance at all.
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lonewolf
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Post by lonewolf on Apr 9, 2021 22:52:23 GMT 10
Not to hand here at work, but the Israeli data was in the Lancet and the US was in the NEJM pre-print section - so should be relatively easy to find. I agree about the response, but I’m not sure about the end-point - if you cannot fix it with vaccination then do you ‘learn to live with it’ or do you keep doing what we are doing? I searched those websites but for a layman such as myself i cant really make sense of most of the links to articles or journals etc, lots of very scientific jargon that goes over my head.
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lonewolf
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Post by lonewolf on Apr 18, 2021 0:03:32 GMT 10
Greetings,
I dont understand how the AstraZeneca covid-19 vaccine can be ok for over 50's but not people under 50's, surely older people are more prone to blood clotting than younger age groups?
.gov in a bind again or is this all planned as per "problem, reaction, solution".
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Post by Stealth on Apr 19, 2021 11:07:39 GMT 10
Greetings, I dont understand how the AstraZeneca covid-19 vaccine can be ok for over 50's but not people under 50's, surely older people are more prone to blood clotting than younger age groups? .gov in a bind again or is this all planned as per "problem, reaction, solution". My largely uniformed suspicions on this subject are that they're purely reacting to numbers. I believe that if you're under 50 there's a higher chance of having blood clotting from the AZ vaccine than alternate options such as Pfizer, than from having complications or dying from Covid. Even if that factor isn't that high in the first place. So the risk of blood clotting is considered the bigger risk for that age group. I couldn't think of a really lucid way of actually explaining my thought process on this, so I've created an entirely made up scoring system to show how my brain works on this one. I left the numbers low because of low infection rates in Australia but I want to push heavily that these numbers really are arbitrary. I could have used 1000 as the highest or lowest numbers. It's just to show comparison; Under 50 - Chance of complications/death from Covid = 2 - Chance of blood clotting from AZ vax = 2 - Chance of blood clotting from Pfizer vax = 1
Over 50 - Chance of complications/death from Covid = 3 - Chance of blood clotting from AZ vax = 2 - Chance of blood clotting from Pfizer vax = 1
These numbers entirely ignore factual medical and statistical science. It's just to show my thoughts on how the risk of dying from Covid might higher for those over 50 than those under 50, and how the risk for the AZ vaccine might be considered to be 'more worth it' for those over 50 than those under 50. I pulled these numbers out of the proverbial, I just couldn't find a coherent way to put what I thought might be happening into text haha.
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lonewolf
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Post by lonewolf on Apr 19, 2021 21:29:06 GMT 10
Yeah sort of makes sense Stealth, in layman's terms.
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lonewolf
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Post by lonewolf on Apr 21, 2021 23:37:12 GMT 10
So do these covid-19 vaccines stop transmission of the virus? The vaccines that have been created and available in Australia to "inoculate" you from covid-19 ?
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Apr 22, 2021 18:49:02 GMT 10
No, obviously as there are cases turning up in quarantine from vaccinated people. If u need to get the jab for some reason, dose up on aspirin to thin yr blood.
The formal term is Bovine Fecial Material.
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bce1
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Post by bce1 on Apr 22, 2021 19:06:28 GMT 10
The Pfizer vaccine is ~95% effective in preventing infection. It is ~99.99% effective in prevention of life threatening illness and hospitalisation The question is how infective are the 5% who get the infection. The answer based on several small-medium studies is not very..... big study pending. They are mostly finding evidence of infection but not significant viral replication which is what is need for transmission.
a single vaccinated individual is personally protected. 60-70% of a population based on this viruses virulence and behaviour need to be vaccinated to create a herd effect - which is what is needed to prevent transmission in a community.
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Post by Stealth on Apr 22, 2021 20:34:41 GMT 10
So do these covid-19 vaccines stop transmission of the virus? The vaccines that have been created and available in Australia to "inoculate" you from covid-19 ? As far as I gather (correct me if I'm wrong bce1, I sure ain't no medic! haha) the vaccine won't necessarily halt transmission entirely in all cases. It mostly increases your body's chances of fighting the illness off if you're exposed to someone that's transmitting the virus. So the herd protection thing comes into play because the more people who's bodies will effectively fight off the illness, the less chance there is that they'll spread it when they get it as their body knocks it on it's head straight away. That means they're not floating around in the community transmitting the virus for days on end. Less time shedding the virus means less chance for it to spread. And less opportunity for it to do so in the first place, if the person it lands on has a good immune response and kicks it to the curb before it can even build up enough to cause symptoms that allow it to spread like coughing and sneezing.
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lonewolf
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Post by lonewolf on Apr 22, 2021 22:39:33 GMT 10
Most people i know will not get a vaccine. I would say half the country is split on the decision, possibly more than half.
The chance, even if 1 in 100000 or 1 in 1000000 in getting a serious complication or dying (if you understand and believe what is being reported by .gov and the msm) is obviously too high therefore more testing is needed. Would you want your love one to suffer serious side effects and or die?
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Apr 23, 2021 10:19:00 GMT 10
What bothers me is the blood clot reaction came as a surprise, due to insufficient testing. What other surprises might there be, a year or more down the track, the result of rushed and insufficient testing?
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Post by Stealth on Apr 23, 2021 11:57:18 GMT 10
Absolutely agree, frostbite. That's a major part of the reason that I'm reluctant when it comes to getting my kids vaccinated and won't do so until there's more longer term studies released. I'm more ok with risking myself as their parent and accepting that potential things might crop up in my future health as a result of the vaccine if it means that my kids have a better chance of not being exposed.
But I'm cautious for them, because they have their entire lives to live yet. Who knows how long it will take for any negative long term effects to show up. I've had the same attitude with all the vaccines my kids have had. I've looked at all of the long term studies and balanced up potential risk if they have it vs. if they don't. But we can't do that with this vaccine and won't be able to for quite some time yet.
It's all about personal risk acceptance. Each person's level of risk is different. For some folks, the risk that you have a one in 103 chance of dying in a car crash keeps them from ever getting in a car. Most of us don't even think twice about it, it's just a risk that we accept on the basis of how much more convenient it is to drive than walk everywhere. The risks are very real regardless of your personal level of comfort with them, and I definitely accept that for some folks there is no risk factor low enough to ever accept that the potential outcomes might be better.
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Tim Horton
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Post by Tim Horton on Apr 23, 2021 12:07:29 GMT 10
.gov in a bind again or is this all planned as per "problem, reaction, solution". + + + +
This is possible.. A recent interview with Canadas chief medical officer, when she was grilled about the recent and differences in provincial travel and other restrictions.... She let it out of the bag in so many words....
"With out this, how are we going to keep the carrot on the stick in front of people to get them to vaccinate"
Or damn close to those exact words.. But she did use the "carrot on the stick" part of it..
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lonewolf
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Post by lonewolf on Apr 23, 2021 23:00:42 GMT 10
What bothers me is the blood clot reaction came as a surprise, due to insufficient testing. What other surprises might there be, a year or more down the track, the result of rushed and insufficient testing? Exactly, long term effects would be unknown at this stage of the "experimental trial". Just like many other vaccines and medications taken past and present. "Rockefellar Medicine" !
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lonewolf
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Post by lonewolf on Apr 23, 2021 23:07:18 GMT 10
.gov in a bind again or is this all planned as per "problem, reaction, solution". + + + + This is possible.. A recent interview with Canadas chief medical officer, when she was grilled about the recent and differences in provincial travel and other restrictions.... She let it out of the bag in so many words.... "With out this, how are we going to keep the carrot on the stick in front of people to get them to vaccinate" Or damn close to those exact words.. But she did use the "carrot on the stick" part of it.. Yes i saw that, pretty much saying that everyone must vaccinate in order to have their freedom back or at all going forward. Imo id call that bio-terrorism at this stage.
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Post by Stealth on Apr 25, 2021 23:09:29 GMT 10
I have to admit, after watching a news piece about the current outbreak in India I'm more concerned than I have been in months. Not panicking by any stretch but... Wary. We've been pretty lucky here in Australia. Some of it has been planning and effort and some of it has been sheer dumb luck.
Who knows how long that's going to last?
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Tim Horton
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Post by Tim Horton on Apr 26, 2021 18:06:26 GMT 10
I have to admit, after watching a news piece about the current outbreak in India I'm more concerned than I have been in months. + + + + This is something many have screamed about since day one it seems.. The government shut down traffic borders, but let international air travel continue.. Most from India and other close parts of the world to there landing in Vancouver ....spit.... Supposedly being required to "self quarantine" ..yea right.. Many feel India has had a pretty much free hand at sending migrants for a very long time.. Preferential treatment of vetting, paperwork, you name it..
I'm sure there is more to all this, but don't get me started..
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Post by spinifex on Apr 26, 2021 18:46:25 GMT 10
I spent half a day doing a cliff-top walk with someone who turns out to know a LOT about corona viruses in animals. He is concerned that if the current human corona virus behaves like corona virus in livestock, some species of which, in some parts of the world are vaccinated as frequently as every 4 months ... our own human species might be in for more of a fight with this disease than anyone is letting on. There is a strain of Corona Virus that is of major economic concern to poultry farms that started out many years ago with the descriptive name of infectious bronchitis. Meaning it primary symptoms were of a severe respiratory nature. Over many years, despite HEAPS of vaccination, new strains of this same virus emerged who's primary symptoms were NOT respiratory. Over time it began to severely attack kidneys and later the female reproductive tract. Young birds that caught the disease were rendered sterile. Think about the implications of that ... And I'll say again ... despite heavy use of vaccines, Infectious Bronchitis Corona Virus has gone on to generate mutations that now attacks kidneys and female reproduction. And according to my friend ... a strain that is not producing strong respiratory symptoms but does cause major reproductive harm may go un-noticed and unvaccinated for years ... potentially punching large holes in our species reproductive capacity. It won't be picked up as a threat in any sort of future testing because vaccinated people will be testing positive for covid anyway. In terms of vaccine development Vet Manual says: "There are many distinct types of IBV, and new or variant types, which are not fully controlled by existing vaccines, are identified relatively frequently. Variant viruses historically arise from mutations accumulating over time as the virus replicates (genetic drift). However, recombination can occur in coronaviruses and may result in unique viruses that may or may not cause disease. Selection of vaccines should be based on knowledge of the most prevalent virus type(s) in the area. The correlation between IBV type and protection is imperfect, and selection of the most appropriate vaccine, or combination of vaccines, may require experimental assessment in vivo. (in vivo meaning in living people - not laboratories!) (Source of above para is: www.msdvetmanual.com/poultry/infectious-bronchitis/infectious-bronchitis-in-poultry)So the Covid vaccines we currently have will have to be constantly re-worked and experimented on people. And then we will be needing multiple vaccines for different varieties of Covid as they appear. So far, it seems the first round of vaccines is handling newly emerging strains (South African, Brazilian etc) but we are only a couple of months into the covid vaccine project. Food for thought. Covid is the 'new normal' forever now. There will be a constant need to develop new vaccines to meet the threat of new strains of the disease.
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Apr 26, 2021 19:04:28 GMT 10
Bloody Chinese.
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