malewithatail
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Location: Northern Rivers NSW
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Post by malewithatail on May 3, 2022 10:32:58 GMT 10
Farm-stays can be profitable, rustic cabins, off grid, but there is an investment. Conversely, you are doing it for a business, so tax options may be available. Use the money from leasing out one to finance another and so on.
Also, just remember, you don't have to make a profit from something, say growing stuff, money saved is money earned as well as hard cash in the hand is.
Firewood is a pretty healthy business, especially if you can get reasonably close to a town. Gear is minimal, a good chainsaw, a saw bench or docking saw of some kind, a log splitter and a Ute. Away you go. Once again, its a primary production activity and you may be elegable for cheap regos, insurances, licenses and tax breaks on fuel.
Hope that helps you achieve you dream.
You know you own an old tractor when.....You have run a tractor at such a low RPM that a 3 inch clod of dirt kills the engine. Try that with a diesel !
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Post by startingtoprep on May 4, 2022 13:58:08 GMT 10
We spent several years investigating various properties around NSW, before settling on this one. Time is short nowand you may not have the time left to do such research before it all falls apart. Water is vital, both for domestic use (rainwater tanks are OK), and a dam or two or creek for irrigation of gardens that will be needed to survive the collapse. A defensible place is also required, not easily visible from the road, and perhaps you put up with a rough driveway for the sake of defense. I really think that the chances of finding something for $50k within commuting distance from Sydney is a dream. Properties in Northern NSW are available and most are arable with reasonable access, but not for $50K. You will know when you've found the right one, so keep looking and don't give up. Thanks a lot! I don't mean to buy a place outright with 50K. What I meant is that I could get to something around those levels of savings to give as a deposit in the next year or so, but would have to mortgage the rest (thus the question about the land paying for itself). What's your profession Startingtoprep? I'm in IT as a rule, but I haven't been hands-on due to the requirement to be physically present and have moved to a different role where I can work remotely most of the time, but I'm still required to visit customers a few times a month (Sydney CBD), thus the requirement for an area that's not too far for now  I hate to be brutally honest, but if it were possible to pay $50k and have the block pay for itself everyone would be doing it. I'd be first in line! The block won't pay for itself. The time that you spend on resourcing the land is what will make money. If you're working the land (bees, chooks, growing food, whatever) you're spending time. That time will have to be worked alongside your full time job to have that block 'pay for itself'. Chooks don't feed and fix their own boxes. Plants don't prevent pests getting to them and ensure that they're watered. If you're resourcing commodities like wood, that will only last as long as there's wood on the land. And with 1-5 acres you're still going to have to spend time organising felling, bundling, transporting, selling, business admin time... All again, something you'll have to do along side your current full time job to make enough out of it for it to pay for itself. You could organise for locals to pay a fee to come and lop said lumber themselves, but you're going to get bottom rates for that because who's going to pay as much for that when they can call a local company to come and drop pre-cut wood at their storage for them? Sell to the local company instead? They probably won't pay you enough to cover the cost of the mortgage. And after the first winter, you're out of wood. What do you do for the rest of the year? And then the years following that? You can let locals use your land to grow their food, but are they going to pay enough to pay off the mortgage each month? Why do that when they can buy the food themselves at a store for the same price? I know that sounds brutal and to be honest that's me being pretty blunt. I'm normally a bit more diplomatic than that. But I think that you're possibly looking in the wrong direction because I literally did the exact same thing for far too long! As the regs around here will know in the last two years I retrained into a different job stream. HECs is a wonderful thing, and I'm now paying off a shiny new diploma that cost me $6k... with a job pay increase of nearly $40k per year that I netted by changing jobs. My husband and I started off with half the deposit that you currently have and in four months from me starting my new job we're sitting at $50k. We've sacrificed little bit to save that hard that quick but nothing life ending and the pay increase I got means we're able to buy as soon as we find a property that suits us. The change of job also meant that I can WFH which made it possible for us to look in different locations from where we are now, which means a far better chance of finding what we're after at a reasonable price. Now sure, it's not our forever home and the prepping haven of my dreams is still in the future. But getting started with the hardest step of changing to another job got us in the position of even being able to consider buying a home. I'm not going to sit here and say "I can do it so everyone can". That's pretty short-sighted and I know that everyone's situation is different. But I literally couldn't move away from where we live now in my old job because I couldn't DO it anywhere else. And the prices here is why we couldn't afford to buy. It took a few solid "stop complaining and do something different" conversations with people who are older and wiser than I am before I realised that nothing was ever going to change if I didn't stick my neck out and do something uncomfortable. /preaching session If you do actually come up with a solid business plan for a block to pay itself off, let me know. I'm still definitely going to be first in line 🤣. I appreciate you being honest and I don't mind the words at all. If anything, that's what I'm here for. The reality, not just the "nice dream". I'm not in a reddit forum ruled by "don't say mean things or I'll ban you" for that specific reason. I understand the tradeoffs and of course, when it comes to the wood, if it's something small like 1 acre, then it's not worth it, otherwise we wouldn't be able to sustain ourselves during winter. On the job part, I'm on a pretty decent income at the moment, but my wife has a few limitations and she wouldn't be able to get a highly paid job, so the brunt of the bills are paid with my income. We don't travel or fly around, don't go out for expensive dinners and don't spend a lot of money, but the cost of rent for a house in Sydney is what's eating our income (the 2 past years of government overreach, especially in Western Sydney have proven to me, if anything, that I should NEVER live in an apartment ever again). And I completely understand the sticking your neck out and doing something uncomfortable perfectly well. We risked everything a few years ago and had to start from scratch again (thus why we don't have a house or multiple houses like most people today and are rebuilding our savings). It's just being able to calculate the risks and taking action according to your reality (and frankly, age, as you can make mistakes early in life and recover much more easily than later on). Please keep the advices, ideas and words of caution coming. I'm absorbing everything and I'm thankful that you're all taking the time to share. Thanks again! |
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malewithatail
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Location: Northern Rivers NSW
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Post by malewithatail on May 4, 2022 15:25:20 GMT 10
I believe time is so short, you got to have a plan 'B'. Once the collapse starts, being anywhere near a major city makes you a target, and probably dead meat. Sorry for being so frank, but its survival now.
In your situation, Id be looking at land, somewhere, for your $50 k deposit. Not near the city either, out, away somewhere safer. Your not going to get land anywhere around Sydney, Wollongong etc. The highlands is also too expensive and too bloody cold !!
Call it a bug out location. Nerriga had cheap land years ago, but all pretty dry. Keep off the coast, thats where most people will be and will be the most dangerous place to be, simply because there are so many there. And there is always the tsunami risk.
Tara, in Queensland, had cheap land that was dry, but usable. Now that's evaporated and anyway, with CSG, there is a smell all the time there.
Once again, maybe a commune might be better. Say around Nimbin, or a bit west of there. Usually like minded people, sometimes with 'different' views to yours, but company and security. Its wont be easy to find one that suits, but you have to start somewhere.
We took our holidays and went looking for 3 years till we found this place. We looked at the highlands, Glenn Innis etc, but its just too cold there for self sufficiency all year round. This place has some issues, like 12 inches down is heavy clay, but it is in the 1,000 mm a year rain area and once the soil is turned and some mulch added, grows almost anything.
Perhaps you could look at spending a week or so in a country town, at a caravan park, or the local oval (usually you can camp there for a nominal fee paid at the local post office, and given to the progress association).
There was/is nice land around Lismore, but it was all under water recently (even Bunnings was 2 meters under), so seek local advice before committing.
Pm me if you want some areas around here.
Dont worry about work, there is always work around country towns, even if its just mowing lawns, or picking fruit. And small country towns are crying out for people to move to them.
Join the local RFS, and Progress associations, there are craft groups, farmers markets and activities happening all the time.
Most of all, act NOW, I feel time is so short and am pushing ourselves to get more done. Weve got a cold spell coming this weekend, so I'm filling all the firewood boxes (5 dwellings), and splitting and stacking lots of extra.
Just do it, things will work out.
You know you own an old tractor when.....Your tool box on the tractor has more than 2 inches of grime and grease in it, and contains several square headed nuts.
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tactile
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Post by tactile on May 4, 2022 15:41:22 GMT 10
What's your profession Startingtoprep? I'm in IT as a rule, but I haven't been hands-on due to the requirement to be physically present and have moved to a different role where I can work remotely most of the time, but I'm still required to visit customers a few times a month (Sydney CBD), thus the requirement for an area that's not too far for now If you want my advise...put the land thing on hold and go full-on with your career in the city. I know you want out but you are looking to make a move when wage growth is actually climbing (especially in your field) and house/land prices are at their highest. Go full-on for 5 years, show no loyalty to your employer...go where the money is, jump ship every 6 months if you have too. Maybe even look at starting your own gig? Build something so you can hire people to do the work then you can get out and sell or use that as a income stream.
You might want to start reading some books on people who have done what your thinking of doing, most come back to the city! From my experience the only way things work in the country is intensive farming which is...intensive! ...or generating an income external to the country because there aint as much money there as in the cities. Writing? Manufacturing a product? A service you can offer remotely? (plenty of niches in IT).
The system we're in is set up by smart, powerful people. You need to think outside the box if you want to escape it.
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captain
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Post by captain on May 4, 2022 18:05:09 GMT 10
I'm in IT as a rule, but I haven't been hands-on due to the requirement to be physically present and have moved to a different role where I can work remotely most of the time, but I'm still required to visit customers a few times a month (Sydney CBD), thus the requirement for an area that's not too far for now If you want my advise...put the land thing on hold and go full-on with your career in the city. I know you want out but you are looking to make a move when wage growth is actually climbing (especially in your field) and house/land prices are at their highest. Go full-on for 5 years, show no loyalty to your employer...go where the money is, jump ship every 6 months if you have too. Maybe even look at starting your own gig? Build something so you can hire people to do the work then you can get out and sell or use that as a income stream.
You might want to start reading some books on people who have done what your thinking of doing, most come back to the city! From my experience the only way things work in the country is intensive farming which is...intensive! ...or generating an income external to the country because there aint as much money there as in the cities. Writing? Manufacturing a product? A service you can offer remotely? (plenty of niches in IT).
The system we're in is set up by smart, powerful people. You need to think outside the box if you want to escape it.
I’d be wary about committing to anything now. Wait for a while for the rates to knowingly go up, then you may start to see some panic and therefore more places come on the market. Cash yourself up now and take advantage or people selling out because they cannot ford their big purchase - stupidly made at the wrong time. |
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Post by Stealth on May 6, 2022 9:16:32 GMT 10
If you want my advise...put the land thing on hold and go full-on with your career in the city. I know you want out but you are looking to make a move when wage growth is actually climbing (especially in your field) and house/land prices are at their highest. Go full-on for 5 years, show no loyalty to your employer...go where the money is, jump ship every 6 months if you have too. Maybe even look at starting your own gig? Build something so you can hire people to do the work then you can get out and sell or use that as a income stream.
You might want to start reading some books on people who have done what your thinking of doing, most come back to the city! From my experience the only way things work in the country is intensive farming which is...intensive! ...or generating an income external to the country because there aint as much money there as in the cities. Writing? Manufacturing a product? A service you can offer remotely? (plenty of niches in IT).
The system we're in is set up by smart, powerful people. You need to think outside the box if you want to escape it.
I agree with this. I've got a similar background. Grew up rural, mucking about on farms and helping at harvest time/lambing/shearing etc... But that was a long time ago in a land far, far away. It's given me just enough knowledge to understand that it's bloody hard work that can't be done without either a big family or good community to all spread the love and workload if you're looking at a fully functioning farm. There's a very real and very common risk of finding it all too hard and moving back. I've seen it a lot in friends who thought it would be easy to convert over. There's going to be a learning phase where everything's harder than I remember and there are things that come up that we're not expecting. We're expecting that the first couple of growing seasons will be the hardest and have the least yield, and we are assuming that we'll need at least two years of income stored to ensure that we come through it ok. If we have money left at the end then sweet. If not, that's ok so long as we've got everything ticking over. And that's fine for us because we made sure we're in secure roles that are able to be worked remotely. In IT there's definitely space for that kind of thing. Deloitte, Leidos, Boeing. All the major firms are scrabbling for skilled IT staff and are willing to agree to remote workers because they need IT people desperately. If you can wing yourself a remote role and work double-time for a year or two while you get everything rolling on your property you'll be sitting pretty. You can start working remote from your current location and look for the perfect property where ever it might be, and then move once you've settled. That's what we're doing. It's a weird and uncomfortable ride but we're getting there. I know it's rough, but I agree with tactile 100%. Follow the money. Loyalty can be shown and it's something our elders taught us as kids because that was THEIR work life. But the reality is if we want the same outcomes as them (a home, financial security, a space to call our own) then we simply cannot play by the rules that they did. Loyalty must be trumped by the benefit to you and your family because at the end of the day your company won't be sending anyone to your funeral. |
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tactile
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Post by tactile on May 6, 2022 10:40:01 GMT 10
After a 30 year absence I have recently been called back (I made the call actually) to the family dairy farm to help out my 80+ year old father (who is currently the healthy one in the family!) while my brother recovers from a surgery. I know dairying is probably the most intense form of farming but it has opened my eyes to whats involved to THRIVE on a farm these days. Lets face it, it's a business and in my opinion (one my dad shares), you don't go into business to make wages, you put it all on the line to make as much money as you can because you don't know whats around the corner, just ask any cafe (any small/medium business really) in Melbourne (and other cities/towns) for confirmation of that theory over the last 2 years.
Our farm is an intense, around the clock machine that has to be fed lots of inputs and labor to make it work and I can see the decline and neglect of the place over the last 6 to 12 months due to the decline in my brothers health and the fact that my father can keep up with the basic running of the farm (just) but not the on-going upkeep and improvements. And this is with paid help in the milking department. I have 12 months of full-time work there easy...
Problem with farming is they are mostly "price takers". The money you make for your product is dependent on what others decide. If you are a price taker you are screwed and you are at the mercy of large corporations and what price they choose to give you and when you're in that position you are at the bottom of the care list. Farmers lost their price control when they gave up their co-operatives...NZ farmers & Fonterra are about the last holdout (in the dairy industry anyway) and the pressure on those farmers is intense to sell out their ownership so they can go public...I assume its just a matter of time...but for the moment, NZ Dairy farmers do very well...If they stick together and keep control of their commodity they will continue to do so.
I was also there to observe when Coca Cola Amital took over SPC, Ardmona and IXL and left a trail of destruction for the people and fruit growers in the Shepparton region. All that expertise, jobs and wealth - gone because a hand full of clowns at a glorified tobacco company thought they could double the profits of these companies - they failed!
It's hard to make money these days but if you do, you or what you're making money from will quickly become a target. But that's something to worry about when and if it happens!
I understand that my discussion here is probably beyond the scope of the OP but the lessons can be scaled down to the smaller level he is looking for. I think that the Prepper idiom of OPSEC is supremely important for business or making money. Keep it under the radar for as long as possible or you'll become a target. That's why I like service industries & manufacturing - good ones are hard to replicate. "Innovators" & "Entrepreneurs" don't like them because they are hard to scale. They like them when all the hard work is done and they are making huge profits tho!
Take Joey's Outback Packs business (or ex-business?) would be a great opportunity for a co-op. Ten preppers put in $10K and you would have a start to move the business forward. Niche product that's respected around the world...great start to a successful business...in theory anyway.
Anyway...I'm dribbling on!
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bug
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Post by bug on May 6, 2022 10:53:13 GMT 10
Agree with captain. There's been a ridiculous spike in people moving to rural areas. Prices have skyrocketted. It's not going to last. Many of them (especially the younger types) will get sick of the poor access to employment and long distance to everything. Many employers are pushing employees back into the office, so hard decisions will need to be made. Covid has led to a LOT of blue-pill taking and the irrational herd-mentality decisions that go along with it. This will wear off as the next 'requirement to be a good person' comes along.
I'd say hang off for 2-3 years and get your finances in order first, so that when you do go, you aren't reliant on anyone or anything to turn a profit.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 6, 2022 13:02:40 GMT 10
Agree with captain. There's been a ridiculous spike in people moving to rural areas. Prices have skyrocketted. It's not going to last. Many of them (especially the younger types) will get sick of the poor access to employment and long distance to everything. Many employers are pushing employees back into the office, so hard decisions will need to be made. Covid has led to a LOT of blue-pill taking and the irrational herd-mentality decisions that go along with it. This will wear off as the next 'requirement to be a good person' comes along. I'd say hang off for 2-3 years and get your finances in order first, so that when you do go, you aren't reliant on anyone or anything to turn a profit. The big question to ask is "do we have two to three years left before it all come crashing down?, in whatever senerio you like, EMP, economic, food security etc.
Personally I don't think we will last for the next 2-3 years as a society.
That's why we are doubling our prepping efforts in relation to food security, crops, gardens, making our houses comfortable, solar power, ammo, comms, and so on.
And yes, the spike in people moving from the cities to out here has been amazing. They have no idea of whats in store, complain when they find petrol is over $2 per liter, and they cant find their swizzle sticks for drinks mixing at the local food shop. (probably a little exaggeration there, but the idea is the important thing !). And its a 140 km round trip to a town for a Maccas take away. Add the almost non existent phone reception, (we have satellite internet), having to solve your own water issues, and they realize they have made a mistake.
Ive heard of people cold calling in on farms around here and offering obscene amounts of money on a walk in, walk out basis, bypassing real estate agents completely, and inflating land prices to the stratosphere. Perhaps it will all get a bit more sane when the economy falls over.
Perhaps society is starting to wake up that the gravy train is almost at the end of the line and they are moving from the cities.
You know you own an old tractor when.....Some days you talk to your tractor more than your wife.
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tactile
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Post by tactile on May 6, 2022 13:52:29 GMT 10
We all have a good "dumb-arse city slicker" story...the best one I heard was going back a few years but a well-off family bought a lucerne farm in north east country Vic. and somehow managed to order water for irrigation purposes.
The water bailiff was a bit concerned when the delivered water was not used and went into the drainage system. He dropped in to see the property owners and they proceeded to give him an earful on why he hadn't organised the paddocks to be watered for them!  |
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 6, 2022 14:44:47 GMT 10
Called out to a new family that had just moved in. Their lights didn't work. Went over and straight to the shed, cranked up the generator, and told them that was $100 call out fee and I will show you how to refuel and start the generator. It was only originally a weekender and didn't have solar installed, just a 7.5 kva Lister diesel, yes, hand cranked. They left the same day !!!
You know you own an old tractor when.....You turn the steering wheel to the left and know the odds are slightly in your favor that it will actually eventually turn left.
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Post by Stealth on May 6, 2022 21:18:22 GMT 10
I'm with you MWT. I don't think we DO have 2-3 years to prep a whole working small farm. And I'm talking SMALL. My preference is a hectare because I simply know for a fact that I couldn't work anything bigger without assistance. I need something small enough that if the other half is down for the count for a bit, the kids and I can manage. I wouldn't even call that size a small farm. A smallholding, sure. But that's as good as it gets. But we're not planning to farm for all of our needs all of the time.
I think anyone looking for land to live off now needs to buy in the next 6-12 months max. And that's to at least get a first growing season started. I think most people would still struggle if they didn't have any food preps ready for more immediate requirements. And you'd have to be on that land and working it full time to make it put out enough to sustain a couple of people for most of their needs within the next 12 months.
In our case we're not aiming for that. It's not realistic. We're not interested in putting ourselves into debt that we can't afford to service on the chance that we'll need it straight away. If we had grown kids or no kids at all it'd be a different story. But we have to work within the bounds of our own reality. But it's not like because we can't fulfill the 'ultimate best case fix' for preppers we should just up and give up.
So my suggestion for those of us who can't buy land to grow on just yet for whatever reason is to focus on the more immediate preps in the mean time while we're working on the better solutions. Food, water, power sources, stocks for repairs of every day items, transport, and portable financial preps. We live in a house with heck all storage and three kids and we still have gradually built up enough food storage for about three months without any other input. It's something that everyone will need regardless of where they live or how self sufficient they are so it's actionable while you hunt for the best place to buy.
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norseman
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Post by norseman on May 7, 2022 0:23:13 GMT 10
Agree with captain. There's been a ridiculous spike in people moving to rural areas. Prices have skyrocketted. It's not going to last. Many of them (especially the younger types) will get sick of the poor access to employment and long distance to everything. Many employers are pushing employees back into the office, so hard decisions will need to be made. Covid has led to a LOT of blue-pill taking and the irrational herd-mentality decisions that go along with it. This will wear off as the next 'requirement to be a good person' comes along. I'd say hang off for 2-3 years and get your finances in order first, so that when you do go, you aren't reliant on anyone or anything to turn a profit. The big question to ask is "do we have two to three years left before it all come crashing down?, in whatever senerio you like, EMP, economic, food security etc.
Personally I don't think we will last for the next 2-3 years as a society.
That's why we are doubling our prepping efforts in relation to food security, crops, gardens, making our houses comfortable, solar power, ammo, comms, and so on.
And yes, the spike in people moving from the cities to out here has been amazing. They have no idea of whats in store, complain when they find petrol is over $2 per liter, and they cant find their swizzle sticks for drinks mixing at the local food shop. (probably a little exaggeration there, but the idea is the important thing !). And its a 140 km round trip to a town for a Maccas take away. Add the almost non existent phone reception, (we have satellite internet), having to solve your own water issues, and they realize they have made a mistake.
Ive heard of people cold calling in on farms around here and offering obscene amounts of money on a walk in, walk out basis, bypassing real estate agents completely, and inflating land prices to the stratosphere. Perhaps it will all get a bit more sane when the economy falls over.
Perhaps society is starting to wake up that the gravy train is almost at the end of the line and they are moving from the cities.
You know you own an old tractor when.....Some days you talk to your tractor more than your wife.
I'm also on satellite internet and "landline" but at least Maccas is only 120k round trip! Back in time it would take years to sell a property here, now it's a matter of days with last selling one a month ago for $700,000 sight unseen by a Sydney "Art Producer" whatever that is! |
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Post by startingtoprep on May 20, 2022 15:41:37 GMT 10
Thank you all again for the high-quality discussion.
Apologies for the late reply, but I'm not sure why I'm not getting updates from the forum via email (I already checked the settings here and I was supposed to be receiving email updates with posts here, but I'm not for some reason).
My position aligns with that of malewithatail. I don't think the Australian, European and even American Western Society (as much as it hurts me to say it) has 2-3 years still.
If anything, the latest move from both biggest parties here to give WHO full control over our nation in case of an "emergency" just goes to show that it's all going downhill and most Australians will just take the authoritarianism gladly.
It is sad to see these absurd offers being made on land in a sight unseen manner by massive corps (Blackrock anyone?) and people who have more money than they know what to do with, and making it impossible for us to move and have an OK life away from the big centers.
I'm really trying to find alternatives without going crazy under debt as I'm sure that they will bring the rates up again and make it harder and harder for people to move away from the cities (as it'd be harder to control people with some level of self-sufficiency), by creating laws that make it impossible for you to grow your own food (Victoria right now, for example) or have your own animals under some poor excuse like "biosecurity" or whatever bullcrap they come up with.
And yes, I agree that for the moment it's critical to secure water and food and have at least the basics on hand (and I'm already at that stage), but to be fair, it'll all be for nothing if we are trapped after it runs out, a few months down the track.
Please keep your opinions, suggestions and experiences coming as I have learned - and appreciate you for it - a great deal so far.
Thank you.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 20, 2022 17:57:34 GMT 10
I said before, its all well and good to have a heap of food, water, comms, power etc stored and ready, but...it will eventually run out and you need a re supply programme, gardens, solar, gasifier for fuel to run a generator/water pump (firefighting as the RFS wont be there to help). Animals, sheep do well and are easy to manage and fresh lamb is delicious, also, a milking cow or two is vital. Chooks are a good investment, behind fox proof electric fences, rabbits and other small animals can supplement your resources. Dont forget a dog or two both for companionship and warning value.
Points to look for in a property include, trees for firewood and building projects, water from a dam or stream, a northerly aspect for solar collection, flood free (just ask those in Lismore about that !), Access to a small town where you can sell excess produce and so on. Look at how defensible the property is, not close to a main road and hidden from the access track or driveway. Sol is a consideration, but you can always start with above ground gardening and build it up from there. A good local Council is a help, especially when building and setting up say a farm gate stall. Just don't expect too much from them as most are somewhat cash strapped. A grade of your road every 6 months, a tip reasonably close and reasonable rates are a bonus.
Working on the gasifier at present, and even thinking about making a steam engine to power a generator may be feasible as well.
An alternative fuel source for powering a generator is becoming more important, especially with all this rain and overcast weather in the Northern Rivers. And with petrol and diesel over $2 per liter, expensive.
I think that when they come for the guns is when we will know that's its almost on us. They know where they are, who has them and how many, so its easy to just confiscate all of them.
You know you own an old tractor when.....You have to make all the gaskets yourself
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