malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 4, 2022 8:29:55 GMT 10
Is SMART really smart? We’re all familiar with SMART devices. It seems everything, even today’s household devices today utilize SMART technology.
This monitors our usage, logs the time of use, duration of operation and other statistics.
All vehicles manufactured since 1975 rely on HEI ignition systems and more modern vehicles, are completely are dependent on computers. ECM, PCM, ABS, most vehicles now have SEVERAL computerized systems and sub-systems.
What they all have in common, they incorporate access features that allow them to be DEACTIVATED. These deactivation features are also susceptible to hackers.
Look at the farm tractors recently “liberated” by Russian troops. Free tractors for the Russian farmers..........until they were deactivated.
One satellite burst shut-down every one of these tractors. Think this could happen to you ?
I work occasionally for a harvest contractor. All the headers, tractors and even the grain trucks are computerized, to the extent that the header wont even start unless it has the latest software from the manufacturer. And even if that means setting up a satellite internet system in a paddock to allow the inbuilt wi fi to connect and upgrade itself. Thats actually happened to us.
Think of the chaos that would happen after an EMP or CME event. As mentioned above, even a determined hacker could stop the harvest. Concerned yet ? How about 'bricking' your nice new car ?
Our farm machinery is old school, mechanical injection diesel, parked on the hill for a gravity start if the battery is flat, ditto for the fire truck as well, although it does have an electronic ignition module in the distributor, but it takes 5 minutes to change it out for the spare wrapped up in foil in the dashboard.
You know you own an old tractor when.....You yank on a piece of fencing wire or bailing twine to raise the implement.
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grumble
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Post by grumble on May 4, 2022 9:29:46 GMT 10
Its Horses for courses
Do i personally like the way all the modern equipment has integrated electronics that are potential weak points? not particularly no don't
However I do see the value of its functionality
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 4, 2022 9:49:27 GMT 10
I too admit its convenient , and modern materials have removed the need for an engine rebuild every 30 or 40 thousand miles. Electronic ignitions mean no points to wear out, fuel injection (petrol) gives better economy, alternators give enough power to run air con, even at idle, but the price to pay is perhaps a less robust electrical system.
Anyway, after we get EMP'd, we wont be driving much.
In a strange sort of way, I am looking forward to it as life will get simpler, no internet, no TV etc, but harder, yes, growing all your food is not easy, we have been at it for nearly 20 years so far and have had a few meals totally supplied from the farm gardens and animals, but never having a Coles or Wollies only a 120 km round trip away is going to take a bit of getting used to.
You know you own an old tractor when.....You know how to put a set of front mounted cultivators on.
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Post by Stealth on May 4, 2022 13:48:01 GMT 10
Now that I think about it, you're the best person to ask MWT! My electric bike is disconnected from the grid at all times apart from when it's charging. That's maybe once a month or so at the moment because I haven't been riding too much. Haven't had the need to. So my question is, how at risk is it in the event of an EMP? I plan to charge it down the track with solar if necessary, I have the set up for it. At least, I think my set up will work. I'll have to check that! But that wouldn't be much good if the computer is fried and I'm riding a really heavy brick because the motor won't work. I've done a little bit of reading and what I've read indicates that the smaller a device is the lower the risk (if powered off and not connected to the grid) but I guess what I'm asking is, how likely is it that I'll have a very expensive rolling lump of cement if there IS an EMP strike?
(Explain like I'm five, I have ZERO comprehension of electronics and how they work rofl)
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captain
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Post by captain on May 4, 2022 17:56:47 GMT 10
I am looking forward to it as life will get simpler, no internet, no TV etc, but harder, yes, And no ausprep.com!!! would you get the shakes if you couldn’t get onto here for a read or posting? It’ll be gone too.
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bug
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Post by bug on May 4, 2022 18:39:47 GMT 10
I find bicycles are a great mode of transport. No electronics. Minimal maintenance. Quiet. Can go where a car cannot.
After the the first EMP/Major solar flare etc. Let's see all the ICE addicts and bicycle haters enjoying their newly found habit of long distance walking.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 4, 2022 19:32:23 GMT 10
Stealth, the bottom line is that no one really knows how modern electronics, the power grid and so on will react to a man made EMP. There are several ways to create one, nuke is only one way. A directed energy weapon can also create a pulse, as can lightning.
An EMP releases huge waves of electromagnetic energy, which can act like a giant moving magnet. Such a changing magnetic field can cause electrons in a nearby wire to move, thereby inducing a current. With such a huge burst of energy, an EMP can cause damaging power surges in any electronics within range. Its a very fast rise time pulse, much faster than a lightning strike and that's the issue to protect from. Surge arresters and so on, are relatively slow operating devices, although a gas type can be quite quick.
That said, we can calculate the electric field strength, then look at the effect such a field could have on various items.
The field from a EMP is over 25,000 volts per meter, in other words, every meter of conductor (wire, circuit board, etc), will have induced in it a voltage of 25,000 volts.
The pulse can easily span continent-sized areas, and this radiation can affect systems on land, sea, and air. ... A large device detonated at 400–500 km central Australia would affect all of the continent. The signal from such an event extends to the visual horizon as seen from the burst point.
Luckily, an EMP is like a very fast rise time pulse, or surge, and a lot of modern electronics is now protected from such surges that can be caused by lightning hitting a power line, so chances are if a device is not plugged in at the time of the EMP it will survive. That doesn't mean it will work as the performance may have been degraded, but a re boot could get it working again. Disconnecting the battery on your car and waiting a few minutes may reset the electronics, and most modern cars have a "get home" function that the computer will revert to if it detects a major sensor failure.
As for your electric bike, it may survive, but some functions may not work correctly. Solar power systems may survive, especially those running stand alone off grid, but any connected to the grid will be fried. The regulator will probably be destroyed. Depending on the amount of surge protection, and weather its quick enough to operate, an inverter could survive, as they are quite robust devices. If its 240 volts is not connected to anything, so no voltage can be induced back into it, it should be OK. Most batteries are able to survive an EMP of any magnitude without suffering damage. This is true for all common types of batteries including lead-acid, lithium-ion, alkaline, and nickel metal hydride. Only complex battery modules with built-in charge controllers are likely to be affected.
Out here I have an old microwave oven set up away from the wall, as a makeshift Faraday cage. A microwave oven utilizes a partial Faraday cage (on five of its interior's six sides) and a Faraday shield, consisting of a wire mesh, on the sixth side (the transparent window), to contain the electromagnetic energy within the oven and to protect the user from exposure to microwave radiation. Other things, like metal garbage cans with close fitting lids, can make a reasonable Faraday cage, but the stuff u put in it must be insulated from the sides, ie. not touch the sides.
So, I think the question is more of if the bike is not running and disconnected from the grid when an EMP happens,its more a case of how are you going to charge it ? rather than will it still work ?
Perhaps anything is better than nothing, but I suspect we wont know what works and what doesn't work until it actually happens.
You know you own an old tractor when.....No body has ever heard of the implement dealer on the sticker.
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Post by milspec on May 4, 2022 20:27:13 GMT 10
Its been a few years now since I took a dislike to smart devices and integrated systems. That was a bit of a turning point and the beginning of a new inconvenient phase as I gave up the use of things like google maps & some other convenient but invasive apps. I also refuse to use certain smart tvs ... my gf bought home a new google based tv ... I took it back to the store for a refund. Its nigh on impossible to avoid invasive tech to some extent but l choose to limit its use where possible.
As for level of degradation from EMP I doubt gery much that it will be all electronics as Im sure some systems are hardened, some are robust by design whilst others will be toasted. Sure would like to know if off grid systems will be less vulnerable by virtue of not being connected to the long transmission lines of the mains grid system.
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iceage
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Post by iceage on May 4, 2022 22:49:29 GMT 10
Anything that has the capability to "phone home", maybe embedded telemetry should be avoided if at all possible. Easier said than done in today's business world. It actually might be impossible in the not too distant future to buy tech products that are not smart which is a bit of a worry.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 5, 2022 8:50:51 GMT 10
I think that communications, or in military terms, comms, will be the vital link in the chain that is going down.
Our priority will be to get all those here back to the farm if they were off farm at the time. Depending on the nature of the threat as to how we achieve that. Knowing where everyone is and will be waiting or making their way home is the first point. We have pre arranged meeting places for WTSHTF.
I have several methods of travel post SHTF, the last is the tractor, an older David Brown diesel, parked on the hill and all mechanical, even if the alternator is dead, it doesn't need a battery to run. Police cars will be toast, so driving it on the road is a no brainier, besides, they will have their hands full with other issues.
I carry a spare engine computer for my farm ute under the seat, and the old Triton (which is now a on farm fire truck), has a spare ignition module in the glove box.
To communicate, obviously the mobile phone is the main weapon. If that system is down, all vehicles have UHF cb radios, and they are programmed to the repeater, which is solar powered and has a range of several 100 km in all directions. Once we know where everyone is, we can take steps to get them home, or make their own way home depending on where they all are.
Intel gathering is now the main activity, at least until we find out whats happened. I have a WW2 communications receiver, all valve, and its powered from a WW2 dynamotor unit that is basically a 12 volt motor and 260 volts dc generator on the same shaft. It all runs from the 12 volt, 1,000 amp hour shack battery's and is all EMP proof. Its disconnected from the 160 meter long zepp type aerial except when im using it. The backup ham transmitter is also all valve and runs from the same dynamotor, so is EMP proof. (The backup transmitter can also transmit on the normal AM broadcast band, so in an emergency I can keep the community informed as to intel).
All the receivers in the radio room can be switched to a small FM transmitter, to enable me to listen to important frequencies whilst working in the gardens.
I don't know if it will all stay working, but doing something is better than nothing.
You know you own an old tractor when.....You have ever pulled an implement out of a scrap pile.
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bug
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Post by bug on May 5, 2022 9:10:30 GMT 10
Ha, I have kept a very old microwave in my basement for that same reason. Between that and a metal roof, we'll get some protection. Though you never really know until it happens.
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Post by corgiking on May 7, 2022 7:45:11 GMT 10
I believe there are some issues with modern John Deere farm equipment using electronics and software to prevent non authorised repairs. Cost of greater efficiency, although i am sure there are plenty of farmers who could successfully use an open source equipment management system and do repairs themselves. I am not opposed to tech but I don't like anything with built in microphone or smart systems. Very much a case of having to give up your privacy (which is one step away from your freedom) for some convenience.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 7, 2022 8:16:46 GMT 10
John Deere are one of the worst offenders in relation to the 'right to repair' movement. The harvest company I do occasional work for has 8 of their headers and were looking at upgrading to newer models, until we found out that you don't actually own the software in the computer management systems. Its leased and JD can modify the conditions or even take the license from you at any time, and do it remotely without your knowledge.
Ditto all those who have bought a Tesla or Chevy, Ford etc electric car.
So we rebuilt a couple of the older headers and JD lost up to $10 million in sales.
After an EMP or similar event (and they now have directed energy weapons that can create an EMP without a nuke device), I will not be getting out the spare equipment for a while after in case they send a round two after it.
Motor vehicles that automatically turn the lights on for you at dusk and have central locking, automatic windows etc may be convenient, and I agree that fuel injected engines with lean burn technology give good economy etc, but at what price in the long run ?
Our electronic world may be about to go off line, perhaps for ever. At least the man made interference and noise levels on the short wave bands will drop !
You know you own an old tractor when.....Whilst mowing you keep an eye out for a good place to set her down in case you have to do some adjustments.
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bug
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Post by bug on May 7, 2022 13:13:06 GMT 10
John Deere are one of the worst offenders in relation to the 'right to repair' movement. The harvest company I do occasional work for has 8 of their headers and were looking at upgrading to newer models, until we found out that you don't actually own the software in the computer management systems. Its leased and JD can modify the conditions or even take the license from you at any time, and do it remotely without your knowledge. Ditto all those who have bought a Tesla or Chevy, Ford etc electric car. So we rebuilt a couple of the older headers and JD lost up to $10 million in sales. After an EMP or similar event (and they now have directed energy weapons that can create an EMP without a nuke device), I will not be getting out the spare equipment for a while after in case they send a round two after it. Motor vehicles that automatically turn the lights on for you at dusk and have central locking, automatic windows etc may be convenient, and I agree that fuel injected engines with lean burn technology give good economy etc, but at what price in the long run ? Our electronic world may be about to go off line, perhaps for ever. At least the man made interference and noise levels on the short wave bands will drop ! You know you own an old tractor when.....Whilst mowing you keep an eye out for a good place to set her down in case you have to do some adjustments. If one of those directed EMP things can disable people's LED headlights that they leave on all day, then it's time to paint a few targets.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 7, 2022 17:04:03 GMT 10
They are called daylight running lights and Im not sure they are not a Motor Transport requirement on new cars.
You know you own an old tractor when......Half of the nick nack shelf has cat figurines on it, the other half has tractor toys.
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Post by Stealth on May 7, 2022 17:36:12 GMT 10
Stealth, the bottom line is that no one really knows how modern electronics, the power grid and so on will react to a man made EMP. There are several ways to create one, nuke is only one way. A directed energy weapon can also create a pulse, as can lightning. An EMP releases huge waves of electromagnetic energy, which can act like a giant moving magnet. Such a changing magnetic field can cause electrons in a nearby wire to move, thereby inducing a current. With such a huge burst of energy, an EMP can cause damaging power surges in any electronics within range. Its a very fast rise time pulse, much faster than a lightning strike and that's the issue to protect from. Surge arresters and so on, are relatively slow operating devices, although a gas type can be quite quick. That said, we can calculate the electric field strength, then look at the effect such a field could have on various items. The field from a EMP is over 25,000 volts per meter, in other words, every meter of conductor (wire, circuit board, etc), will have induced in it a voltage of 25,000 volts. The pulse can easily span continent-sized areas, and this radiation can affect systems on land, sea, and air. ... A large device detonated at 400–500 km central Australia would affect all of the continent. The signal from such an event extends to the visual horizon as seen from the burst point. Luckily, an EMP is like a very fast rise time pulse, or surge, and a lot of modern electronics is now protected from such surges that can be caused by lightning hitting a power line, so chances are if a device is not plugged in at the time of the EMP it will survive. That doesn't mean it will work as the performance may have been degraded, but a re boot could get it working again. Disconnecting the battery on your car and waiting a few minutes may reset the electronics, and most modern cars have a "get home" function that the computer will revert to if it detects a major sensor failure. As for your electric bike, it may survive, but some functions may not work correctly. Solar power systems may survive, especially those running stand alone off grid, but any connected to the grid will be fried. The regulator will probably be destroyed. Depending on the amount of surge protection, and weather its quick enough to operate, an inverter could survive, as they are quite robust devices. If its 240 volts is not connected to anything, so no voltage can be induced back into it, it should be OK. Most batteries are able to survive an EMP of any magnitude without suffering damage. This is true for all common types of batteries including lead-acid, lithium-ion, alkaline, and nickel metal hydride. Only complex battery modules with built-in charge controllers are likely to be affected. Out here I have an old microwave oven set up away from the wall, as a makeshift Faraday cage. A microwave oven utilizes a partial Faraday cage (on five of its interior's six sides) and a Faraday shield, consisting of a wire mesh, on the sixth side (the transparent window), to contain the electromagnetic energy within the oven and to protect the user from exposure to microwave radiation. Other things, like metal garbage cans with close fitting lids, can make a reasonable Faraday cage, but the stuff u put in it must be insulated from the sides, ie. not touch the sides. So, I think the question is more of if the bike is not running and disconnected from the grid when an EMP happens,its more a case of how are you going to charge it ? rather than will it still work ? Perhaps anything is better than nothing, but I suspect we wont know what works and what doesn't work until it actually happens. Thanks for that MWT! It definitely gives me a few ideas. I should probably have it surge protected regularly anyway and that's something I hadn't even considered. Not to mention the part about cars and the possibility of effectively turning them off and turning them back on again to possibly reset them. That's a good tip to keep in the back pocket. Not to mention the metal garbage bin or old microwave idea. There's not a huge amount of things that are electronic that I desperately would want to save but a few items stored away might mean the difference when it counts.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on May 8, 2022 9:01:02 GMT 10
Like resetting the PC by turning it off then back on, disconnect the battery and wait a few minutes may reset the car engine computer. Most modern cars also have a 'get home' function where if a sensor is out of spec, then a code will be set that enables the engine to run, not properly, but enough to get to a service station.
There are so many sensors on modern cars, even if you swapped out the computer for a spare, there is a possibility that something else is damaged or degraded to the point of not starting.
That said, I do carry a spare engine computer, but my ute is old enough only to have a few engine sensors, like the mass air, and timing and ego, so it may well be able to be got going again by swapping out the computer. If not, bug home bag is in the back with enough supplies for 3 days on the road. I also put in a pushbike if im going any more than 100 km away from home.
If WW3 happens and it turns nuclear, the books will have to be re written re EMP's.
You know you own an old tractor when.....When showing someone your tractor you automatically say "yes, it runs".
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bug
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Post by bug on May 8, 2022 9:43:07 GMT 10
Those running lights are allowed, but not required. They are not headlights. Was more getting at the idiots that leave on their full blown LED headlights all day. They are a safety hazard.
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bug
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Post by bug on May 8, 2022 9:45:51 GMT 10
Interesting reports of John Deere remotely de-activating any Ukranian farm equipment that fell into Russian hands.
If they can do it to Russia, they can do it to you. It's not far fetched at all. The Canadian government froze the bank accounts of anyone who donated to the truckers. Pure authoritarianism with a large dash of dictatorship.
Does anyone really doubt that if they had the ability to de-activate the engines of any driver who participated, that they wouldn't be at least considering or even doing it? Scary stuff.
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Post by corgiking on May 8, 2022 19:18:57 GMT 10
Does anyone really doubt that if they had the ability to de-activate the engines of any driver who participated, that they wouldn't be at least considering or even doing it? Scary stuff. And what gov will we have in the future? No guarantees on that, but if we keep giving up freedom and privacy now, whoever is in power in the future will have it at their fingertips.
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