bug
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Post by bug on Nov 8, 2022 13:08:45 GMT 10
In Australia the largest user of Diesel is the railroads by a very far margin then prob, trucking and farming and mining next. Source please. |
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dadbod
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Post by dadbod on Nov 8, 2022 20:55:39 GMT 10
Railroads have a vested interest in diesel supply and cost - without it they can't function. Getting EV etc. to reduce fuel usage would be in their playbooks nothing to do with being so called responsible citizens or green or climate change. everyone has a vested interest in reducing their costs and lowering their risk. Everyone should be looking at electric and other options as they become available as part of fundamental risk management process. EV's will win on economics, not peripheral issues. Its not even about the environment or human health. dont buy in to the marketing, they are just using available angles to sell you stuff. |
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Nov 9, 2022 9:17:55 GMT 10
A few quick calcs show that if all the IC engined vehicles, not counting trucks, buses, trains etc, were electric, we would need a power grid more than 10 X the size it is now. Aint guna happen.
Even with a incredible battery breakthrough, still aint gunna happen, the energy has to come from somewhere to start off with, and can u imagine the uproar from the greenies if you suggested a use once and throw away battery ? Oh, we do that now and they don't complain, so maybe that would work.
Solar may be workable during the day, but at night....and wind isn't particularly constant, except out to sea perhaps.
Not even gunna suggest nuclear.
If it takes infinite energy to accelerate something to the speed of light, how come the 2 D size batteries in my torch can, or are they more powerful than I thought ?
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moopere
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Post by moopere on Nov 9, 2022 15:23:33 GMT 10
EV's will win on economics, not peripheral issues. Its not even about the environment or human health. dont buy in to the marketing, they are just using available angles to sell you stuff. I can't yet understand how EV are ever going to be economic in the sense that they will prove even-cost or cheaper than what we currently have. The reason I often hear stated is that as EV production ramps up price will come down - but we face a real problem with this theory - noise from the battery related component minerals mining industry around the world seems to be indicating that they are pretty much at capacity with existing mining efforts. Of course new mines can be brought online where exploration has already been carried out but that there is generally an 8-15 years lead time required due to red-tape primarily centred around 'green' issues that are unlikely to go away any time soon. Dodgy countries where red tape is not an issue tend to be lacking in stability and/or infrastructure so only play a relatively small role in global supply. Have a peek at the big EV players annual forecasts - its quite sobering. These guys are fully aware of what their near term impediments are likey to be. |
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Nov 9, 2022 15:52:40 GMT 10
Economics ? And do you think the price of electrikery will remain the same, when its been mandated that you must use an EV ? Its a new cash cow for the Govt turds to milk.
At present, off peak is around 12 c/kwh in most states, so the cost of charging up a Tesla at home (not withstanding it takes 8 to 10 hours using a standard outlet), is 80 kwh X .12 = $9.60, and that gets you around 350 km, not bad for the price. A conventional IC vehicle would cost around 10 X that to cover the same distance.
Enter convenience into the equation.
Your IC car takes, 5 minutes to fill, another 2 or 3 minutes to pay for it, get a cup of coffee, and get on your way. Say 10 mins max.
Assume your time is worth $20/hour, a pathetic rate of pay, but it will do. Then the 8 hours the EV takes to charge up is worth $160 of your time, even though it may happen over night. (If these Govt pr..cks think that solar and wind will supply enough power to charge electric cars overnight, they are stupider than we thought). So, I can see daytime rates of charge being the 12 cents/kwh, and nighttime rates being a lot more, as a fossil fueled power station will be needed to supply that energy. Perhaps battery technology will improve to a point where the grid can be supported by large battery's, or super capacitors overnight. Would it be convenient to only charge your EV during the day ? Will workplaces allow you to do that ?
In the meantime, I can cut, split and stack enough wood to power my car for that 350 km in about 2 hours, and at $20/hr, is $40. The wood is free, the chainsaw is electric and runs from our solar, as is the saw bench and splitter, so no extra costs. Producer gas loses on convenience, as it does take up to 1/2 hour to get the gasifier fired up from cold.
I'm gunna have a choice of some very nice, very cheap vehicles to use when this is mandated. Me thinks a Roles Royce silver shadow will do nicely as my estate car !
Rules that guys wish girls knew.
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Nov 9, 2022 16:25:06 GMT 10
Your math is out.
My car will do 700km on $80 of petrol.
The 8hr charge time won't cost you anything if you plug in at work, or near enough to walk to work. You can earn as you charge.
The real problem is govt providing enough charging stations and enough power to feed them. My bet is we will go nuclear power. Green power is a dummies dream.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Nov 9, 2022 17:03:02 GMT 10
Gee, I wish my roller got that sort of fuel consumption !
And how long till workplaces start charging for the electricity to charge your car up ?
I think Tesla picks up the tab at some fast charge stations at present, but that aint gunna last once 100% of the fleet is electric.
"The real problem is govt providing enough charging stations and enough power to feed them. My bet is we will go nuclear power. Green power is a dummies dream."
Too right vegimite. Nuclear may be the only way, but I'm betting a breakthrough on cold fusion has already been made and is just awaiting the right time to be 'discovered'. The green movement is collapsing overseas, and we wont be far behind.
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dadbod
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Post by dadbod on Nov 9, 2022 19:14:13 GMT 10
i think you are missing the business opportunity... if a business provides charge stations, people will wait at their business. theres some pretty big businesses that want you to spend more time at their premises... think of all the supermarkets, pokies, shopping strips, bunnings etc.
businesses will be able to offer it as part of a salary package for employees.
I also dont understand the equations you put up mwot. the hours while the car is charging can be productive. you dont have to sit and wait. it can also be done while you are not using the car.
I hope we dont go nuclear. as preppers, nuclear is the worst thing to have in our country if we expect a collapse. the big thing that trumps all energy sources is the amount of solar energy earth receives every day. i dont see how any other source can compete. and the cost of production is exponentially decreasing.
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Nov 9, 2022 19:44:51 GMT 10
I don't understand electricity, but my neighbour, who is an electrician certainly does. He had solar panels installed on his roof, but the power they provide is restricted because the power lines can't handle the output from everyone's systems. It seems that solar power will be hobbled until all the lines are upgraded.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Nov 10, 2022 6:55:38 GMT 10
I don't understand electricity, but my neighbour, who is an electrician certainly does. He had solar panels installed on his roof, but the power they provide is restricted because the power lines can't handle the output from everyone's systems. It seems that solar power will be hobbled until all the lines are upgraded. Thats called throttling and is a result of the infrastructure not being able to cope with the demand. The electric company turns your system off or restricts its output, so you don't get as much back on your investment. Go totally off grid and stick it to them.
And they want to encourage more solar/wind, and EV's. The system will collapse if billions are not spent on it to upgrade the poles and wires, transformers and switch-gear. Its been a case of just enough maintenance and investment to keep it going for many years.
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bug
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Post by bug on Nov 11, 2022 8:18:58 GMT 10
i think you are missing the business opportunity... if a business provides charge stations, people will wait at their business. theres some pretty big businesses that want you to spend more time at their premises... think of all the supermarkets, pokies, shopping strips, bunnings etc. businesses will be able to offer it as part of a salary package for employees. I also dont understand the equations you put up mwot. the hours while the car is charging can be productive. you dont have to sit and wait. it can also be done while you are not using the car. I hope we dont go nuclear. as preppers, nuclear is the worst thing to have in our country if we expect a collapse. the big thing that trumps all energy sources is the amount of solar energy earth receives every day. i dont see how any other source can compete. and the cost of production is exponentially decreasing. Correct. Major shopping centres are already doing this. Many are doing it for free. It makes sense too. Anyone who does it is going to be spending money in the shopping centre. |
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Nov 11, 2022 8:22:50 GMT 10
There are 4 electric charging stations in town behind the council center. Don't know if they are free or not, but its good to see local councils in on it.
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bug
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Post by bug on Nov 11, 2022 8:30:15 GMT 10
I don't understand electricity, but my neighbour, who is an electrician certainly does. He had solar panels installed on his roof, but the power they provide is restricted because the power lines can't handle the output from everyone's systems. It seems that solar power will be hobbled until all the lines are upgraded. Thats called throttling and is a result of the infrastructure not being able to cope with the demand. The electric company turns your system off or restricts its output, so you don't get as much back on your investment. Go totally off grid and stick it to them.
And they want to encourage more solar/wind, and EV's. The system will collapse if billions are not spent on it to upgrade the poles and wires, transformers and switch-gear. Its been a case of just enough maintenance and investment to keep it going for many years.
Not sure what you're getting at mate. That throttling occurs on local 415V lines due to temporary overvoltages caused by high generation, low load. It isn't "the electric company" doing it, it's a protection setting in the grid inverter. Nothing to do with wind or utility scale solar. If you have an EV and charge it at home, or a home battery, then throttling is irrelevant for you. Agree with the "go off grid and stick it to them." Particularly if this idiotic idea of charging people for generating during peak times goes ahead. The state governments actively encouraged people to spend money on home solar systems. To then penalise them would be a pretty low act, even for government. |
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Nov 11, 2022 8:50:14 GMT 10
Throttling is done by the bulk supply energy companies, and they are the ones which have access to your smart meter and can turn your solar feed in off or on at their demand. Yes, its usually done 'cause the grid is too high in voltage, due to too little load, or too much excess generation capacity. Local electric suppliers, such as Integral Energy, don't usually have enough access or need to do it. The bulk suppliers, Pacific Power, etc, have that access to your inverter and can and do exert it to keep things stable. Without storage (and the Snowy Mountains gives a bit), along with the rotating mass in the system from the steam turbines, over voltage is more of a problem than under voltage.
All grid interactive inverters have both high and low voltage cut offs pre programmed, but these can be overridden by the control authority using control over the actual power lines, or more recently, via 4 g network.
"The state governments actively encouraged people to spend money on home solar systems. To then penalise them would be a pretty low act, even for government."
Its not the Government this time, but the bulk electricity suppliers that are manipulating things. Good or bad is not for me to say. If the load matched the supplied power, then such methods to keep it under control wouldn't be needed, but the real world is different. Most people are out in the day, just when solar is at its peak, then start to use power at night, when there is no solar and only some wind power. A distributed battery system would work, but whos gunna pay for them ?
We have over 30 kw of stand alone solar panels, capable of generating more than 130 kwh/day, and have trouble using 40 kwh/day, even with irrigation, hot water and charging the main battery submarine battery pak. We have such a large array to carry us through overcast days without needing the generator.
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Jul 7, 2024 11:02:41 GMT 10
Jul 7, 2024 11:02:41 GMT 10
