blueshoes
Senior Member
Posts: 609
Likes: 700
Location: Regional Dan-istan
|
Post by blueshoes on Jan 14, 2023 7:35:59 GMT 10
I notice a lot of the discussion on bug in/ bug out options is very polar: "We're bugging in until forever!!" or "We're bugging out at the first sign of trouble!" ... but thinking through practically what we'd do in a couple of key scenarios, we think the odds are reasonable that in either of those scenarios, our family would end up at an evacuation center for a while after evacuation, before heading somewhere else.
Example #1: there's a catastropic bushfire happening and they're evacuating our town, because of air quality or fire risk; We can't head for the major city where our family is because the road is closed, so we'd be sent first down to the local oval then half an hour or so away to a red cross center.
Exaxmple #2: a nuke gets dropped somewhere within x hundred km's of here, and we're in the path of fallout. To start with, we may shelter at home with the house sealed up for a couple of weeks until the worst of it breaks down. The area we live in may well get declared uninhabitable (like it did near chernobyl, fukushima) and we get evacuated; it's possible we end up in an evac or quarantine center, who knows.
There's not a lot we can do to mitigate either of these - we're already bugged out of the city (this IS our bug-out location!) and we don't have the means to build and maintain a holiday house as things stand. I think our best bet is to build skills, resilience, and maybe a few choice resources that would help us in an evac center.
I was thinking of centers like the Red Cross has run in the past, where there's basically a big hall or whatever and lots of cots and a kitchen. But the thing is, post-covid, the government's built 'quarantine centers' and those may well get reappropriated as evac centers too. I can't work out if that's better or worse - on one hand, you can keep to yourself if you want to and don't have the security issues of watching your bag in a large hall of lots of strangers, but on the other hand, there's no chance to build community and support each other.
Either way, one of my current projects is to pack evacuation bags. They'll probably double as "sleepover at grandma's" bags because we have limited space...
I asked my aunt (an RFS volunteer) for her suggestions - she said any medication, asthma puffers if there's a chance you'll need them, a comfort toy for the kids.
What should I think about including in our evacuation bags? We could pack hike packs for the adults, and backpacks or overnight bags for the kids - but they will need to be under 10kg so they can manage them themselves, as we are outnumbered.
What skills might be useful? I was thinking about things like weed recognition/foraging, storytelling and games to keep kids occupied and engaged, isometric exercises (keeping fit while confined) ... what else?
Also: anyone who's helped run an evac center or spent time in one, do you have any good advice?
|
|
malewithatail
VIP Member
Posts: 3,963 
Likes: 1,380
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
|
Post by malewithatail on Jan 14, 2023 8:23:08 GMT 10
In considering weather to bug in, bug out or stay put, the possibility of an event must be considered.
In Australia, a bush-fire is a big risk and entirely possible. Likewise floods, but a nuke is highly unlikely to affect many, especially as the only listed target in Pine Gap in WA. Yes, someone could nuke a big city, hence the need to be away from such, but its a remote possibility anyway. A man made EMP (which doesn't have to be associated with a nuke any more as weapons exist that can create a EMP with explosives), is a real threat.
Some of these threats can be mitigated by, for instance, location in relation to floods, tsunamis and nuking, equipment in relation to bush-fires and EMP, and knowledge to repair gear damaged in emergency situations.
The bug out option is an extremely limited one, as you just cant carry enough supplies for more than a few days, and the Australian bush isn't flush with wildlife for food hunting. We have basic survival bug out gear, knapsacks, water tablets, hoochi's and so on, but if we have to do that, then we have failed in our primary mission to look after ourselves, and its really gone to s..t.
Our aim will be to repel boarders with deadly force if needed, and we have systems in place to grow enough food for us all, supply enough water through solar and hand pumps, communications to determine whats going on, ways to preserve food for winter and of course, food supplies to carry us over the initial growing period. We are trying to live the prepper lifestyle now, working out things that do work, discarding things that don't work, before TSHTF.
I think of those in a large city, such as Singapore, nearly 25 million souls, almost as many as in the whole of Australia, in one place. Bugging out for them is just not gunna be possible as there is no where to bug out to. Again, it comes down to location, location, location.
With the way things are heading now, the stress on a person who is just waking up to the possibility of societal collapse must be incredible. 20 year ago when we bugged out, I was stressed worrying if the collapse would happen whilst we were between properties, with nothing, that's one reason we built a large mobile home on a bus chassis, to give backup in case of collapse during the changeover period. We've had 20 years to get organized, and we still aren't completely ready. Probably never will be. I am reminded of a scene is a movie that shows some people preparing for a nuke attack, and in the middle of doing things, the lights go out and someone comments that "no, no, not yet, we are not ready !".
Do you really want to live in a world where the only shelter is in a evac center, the only food is tins supplied by a NGO or Red X, and along with 1,000's of others, there is nowhere else to go ? The bush surrounding major cities is alive with others trying to 'bug out', totally unprepared and you standing there with supplies, trying to defend yourself from the hungry hordes. How far would you need to go before being 'safe' from them ? The corridor of of bush around our cities isn't very big, and the water is probably polluted as well as there being not much food available. No, I consider bugging out to a wilderness area at best, a temporary solution, or as in our case, an 'all else has failed and its the last resort".
A defensible, permanent site, with water and ground to grow food is much better solution than taking your chance on bugging out to a remote location in a National Park or similar.
Although Edison did not invent the darksucker, he was the first to perfect a practical darksucker.
|
|
|
|
Post by spinifex on Jan 14, 2023 9:25:54 GMT 10
BlueShoes ... buy a caravan.
Its the semi-bug option that doubles as a holiday asset. You could get something good enough to comfortably live in with 2 adults and 2 kids for under $20 000. Get one with an annex, 3 way fridge and enough solar capacity to power lights and the fridge. (Gas is the fridge back-up power when solar isn't enough.)
This would enable you to bug out from your 'permantent bug out' in both scenarios, give you the flexibility of NOT having to get mixed up in the hullaballoo of emergency shelters and bring with you a small sense of 'home'and a much larger sense of security than staying in crowdeed emergency shelter accom.
My partner and I lived in a rental van for 15 days on the rarely visited forests tracks of tasmania - we bought a new matress, cheap gas burner, a few pots and pans, 2 magnetic LED lights, buckets with lids for storage and seats and water containers (for drinking water) to kit it out and did our bathing in rivers and lakes. It was the best holiday ever.
Or ... you can park your van in any backstreet in a smaller country town under a nice shady tree and meet your temporary neighbours. I'd wager that if you knocked on a few nearby doors and intro'd your family and your circumstances that offers of showers etc would be forthcoming. Just be within walking distance of a public toilet.
I know this is do-able because we have this happening right where I currently live under 'normal conditions' of severe rental scarcity.
I'll take a photo of their setup this arvo and post it.
|
|
|
|
Post by spinifex on Jan 14, 2023 9:30:13 GMT 10
PS : Also have at least 100L of fuel for your car stored at home. Either of your scenarios can quite likely cut local fuel supplies.
|
|
malewithatail
VIP Member
Posts: 3,963
Likes: 1,380
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
|
Post by malewithatail on Jan 14, 2023 10:33:17 GMT 10
Just a quick comment re solar and the fridge gas/electric type.
Works ok, sort of in hot weather on gas, but on electric, need to be run 24/7 and most draw around 120 watts at 12 volts, 10 amps. So, to supply 10 amps overnite, say 10 hours, u need a 100 amp hr battery. It will be discharged to 100% every day and leave no reserve capacity for an overcast day, but that's the good part.
To recharge it, and run the fridge during the day, you need to supply another 100 amp hrs of power, total, over 200 amps hrs at 12 volts, about 2,400 watt hours, not counting any lights, or radio u might use. OK, biggest solar panels commercially available are 400 watts, so u will need at least 6 of them and at about 2 meters long by 1 meter wide, a lot of roof space.
Not practical, better off getting a compressor type fridge, and keep away from the eutectic or solid state peltier types, performance is woeful on hot days. U can tell if its a peltier effect type as most have a heating cycle as well.
Set up a camp kitchen under the awning with a wood fired pizza oven and you could be comforable and safe for quite some time in a grid down situation.
A caravan and EMP proof vehicle is a good bug out option. Gives u lots more room for supplies as well as a shelter in bad weather. More easily defensible than a open campsite.
Good comment re setting up in an urban environment and knocking on doors. Why stay urban ? go bush and do the same on a farm, be polite and accept the no with respect. Try down the road. If you are self contained and can help out during the crisis you may be very welcomed. If u know how to weld, or drive a tractor then all the better.
Have your gasifier in the bed of the ute and u have an infinite fuel resource, as long as the trees last out anyway !
The pressure of a vacuum is measured in units of hoovers (abbreviated to Ho). One hoover is the vacuum produced by one Hoover Constellation Vacuum Pump pumping vacuum for one second.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stealth on Jan 14, 2023 12:38:07 GMT 10
Well I guess it depends on your plans for said evac centre. I personally wouldn't go to one unless it was because of something like a bushfire. Many stories from friends/colleagues who've coordinated evac centres both in Australia and overseas tell me that they'd definitely be a last ditch option for us. Even in a fallout scenario where my house isn't really the best option for safety. The main reason is simply that you can't control other people, and restrictions and different people in one space make for a not fun time after the first day or two.
But I can see why having a short term backpack for the kids and ourselves even if we don't think we would use an evac centre. Worst case scenario you have a pack ready to go for an emergency visit to a family member's house because someone had to go to hospital for a burst appendix or something. It also gives you the opportunity to teach them to be active in their own organisation so that if something happens you can just say "Go get your bags!" and know that there's an aspect that you don't have to organise because they're doing it.
In bags specifically for kids as you've noted they can't carry a lot of weight for a long period so things that can do double duty are important.
A small, light sleeping bag strapped to the bottom of the bag can be used obviously to keep warm, but also as a pillow if you're just resting but also spread out and tied by the top corners it can be used as shade. If you use a heavier one it won't be as effective for that and will obviously be heavy. You can roll up a small tarp inside of it when you store it to use for shelter if it's wet or just to have something clean and dry to sit on. I'd stick a hank of paracord in the centre of the sleeping bag and then roll it up together and use small tie-down straps to attach it to the bottom of the backpack. And that way you have supplies that aren't even inside the bag.
A deck of cards can be used for multiple different games and is invaluable for distraction. A puzzle book or colouring book. And a bag of lollies because not only are they good for morale they're a handy thing to have if a child is in pain. If they have a headache or have bumps and bruises a lolly to suck on can be really helpful to distract them from it.
Kids really need things to keep them engaged and active and distraction can solve a multitude of problems.
A little first aid kit for each child that's aimed towards their age. Under five, bandaids and saline water are probably the best bet. Small scissors, sports tape, and disinfectant can be added for 6-10, and then upwards of that you could add basic medicines like panadol and pins and the like that you wouldn't put in a younger child's kit.
A change of clothes dependant on the season with hats and gloves.
Sunscreen.
A microfibre gym towel.
A water bottle and snacks (and possibly things like cupanoodles in containers for a meal).
A rechargeable torch.
A little solar powered or hand crank radio for older kids who can be trusted to take care of them.
You could use large ziploc bags to keep the 'survival' stuff in at the top of the bags so that if the bag is being used for an emergency trip to grandparents, you can take that stuff out to avoid it being played with and lost when they're bored. Stash the extras in the cupboard where the bags normally live until they come home and tell them to put it back in the second they walk through the door so that it's ready for next time.
My young teen is enormous and could potentially carry a few extra items like a small fold up camp stove and fire/fuel sources. He's been in scouts for a little while now and knows how to use them safely so I'd be ok with putting that kind of thing into his pack. Not so for the younger ones. So it really depends on your own individual child and what you know they're capable of.
But now that we have somewhere that we could potentially bug out to beyond our own home I'm going to make sure that our kids have their bags set up again. I'd let that lapse because I'd decided there wasn't a lot of point because we previously had nowhere to bug out to. Now that we do we're going to have to get them set up again.
|
|
|
|
Post by spinifex on Jan 14, 2023 14:49:11 GMT 10
Just a quick comment re solar and the fridge gas/electric type. Works ok, sort of in hot weather on gas, but on electric, need to be run 24/7 and most draw around 120 watts at 12 volts, 10 amps. So, to supply 10 amps overnite, say 10 hours, u need a 100 amp hr battery. It will be discharged to 100% every day and leave no reserve capacity for an overcast day, but that's the good part. To recharge it, and run the fridge during the day, you need to supply another 100 amp hrs of power, total, over 200 amps hrs at 12 volts, about 2,400 watt hours, not counting any lights, or radio u might use. OK, biggest solar panels commercially available are 400 watts, so u will need at least 6 of them and at about 2 meters long by 1 meter wide, a lot of roof space. Not practical, better off getting a compressor type fridge, and keep away from the eutectic or solid state peltier types, performance is woeful on hot days. U can tell if its a peltier effect type as most have a heating cycle as well. Set up a camp kitchen under the awning with a wood fired pizza oven and you could be comforable and safe for quite some time in a grid down situation. A caravan and EMP proof vehicle is a good bug out option. Gives u lots more room for supplies as well as a shelter in bad weather. More easily defensible than a open campsite. Good comment re setting up in an urban environment and knocking on doors. Why stay urban ? go bush and do the same on a farm, be polite and accept the no with respect. Try down the road. If you are self contained and can help out during the crisis you may be very welcomed. If u know how to weld, or drive a tractor then all the better. Have your gasifier in the bed of the ute and u have an infinite fuel resource, as long as the trees last out anyway ! I don't think we're talking about a scenario requiring defence or alternate means of income ... Just a way of geting by for a few months while a more permanent solution is achieved. Heck ... a fridge is a luxury anyway. We lived without them very successfully for 99.99% of our species existence. We went 15 days in a rental van without a fridge in tassie in mid summer without any hardship. I was cooling cider bottles by wrapping them in wet socks and hanging them in shady trees - we had preserved meats and aged cheese which we bought on day one and ate the last of on day 15 - no worries! I think there is a lot to be said for abandoning the idea that we must aim to keep our lives rolling along as they are now and adapt to new and different ways of doing things. Ways that involve much less electricity and liquid fuels and "convenience" and "certainty". |
|
bushdoc2
Senior Member
Posts: 381
Likes: 469
|
Post by bushdoc2 on Jan 14, 2023 14:58:19 GMT 10
"My young teen is enormous and could potentially carry a few extra items like a small fold up camp stove and fire/fuel sources. He's been in scouts for a little while now and knows how to use them safely so I'd be ok with putting that kind of thing into his pack. Not so for the younger ones. So it really depends on your own individual child and what you know they're capable of.
Keep a small, sealed (eg. PVC tube, or irrigation pipe with TIGHT lids), so the smaller kids can carry lighters, but can't open them to access and play up.
ID/photocopies of important documents.
Cash.
List of phone contacts (friends, accountant, employer) ie. people who can help you or vouch for you.
Encoded credit card number. You can ring up and read out the number over the phone to pay for things.
|
|
malewithatail
VIP Member
Posts: 3,963
Likes: 1,380
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
|
Post by malewithatail on Jan 14, 2023 17:00:36 GMT 10
And carry, encoded of course, the access info for any crypto you have.
"Ways that involve much less electricity and liquid fuels and "convenience" and "certainty"."
Electrikery is convenient energy source, and probably the thing that will be needed first in the rebuilding of civilization. Not so much liquid fuels as one can always make your own fuel from wood.
As I keep saying to a friend re the coming death wave from the jabs, "time will reveal all", and time will reveal if Ive placed too much reliance on the electricity part of the equation.
Very small batteries can be measured in the unit “notional milli vault” (abbreviated to “not mi vault”).
|
|
spatial
Senior Member
Posts: 2,396
Likes: 1,560
|
Post by spatial on Jan 14, 2023 23:53:34 GMT 10
|
|
norseman
VIP Member
Posts: 2,237
Likes: 1,888
|
Post by norseman on Jan 15, 2023 5:30:15 GMT 10
Above and beyond a local or community level of influence and control "Evacuation Centers" are first and foremost designed to herd and then corral the population, citizen's safety and security are a bi-product. Anyone who has worked with or for State or Federal level Emergency Services will get what I'm talking about. At State and Federal level you are a "statistic" and that's even if you manage to register on their screen at all!
|
|
frostbite
VIP Member
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 7,119
|
Post by frostbite on Jan 15, 2023 5:44:12 GMT 10
If you have a good network you can use each other’s places as an evacuation centre.
|
|
bushdoc2
Senior Member
Posts: 381
Likes: 469
|
Post by bushdoc2 on Jan 15, 2023 16:30:34 GMT 10
So keep a stash at your place, at my place, etc.
|
|
bce1
Ausprep Staff 
Posts: 819
Likes: 1,581
|
Post by bce1 on Jan 15, 2023 16:35:34 GMT 10
Yep. Never become a refugee.
If you are evacuated try really really hard to have somewhere to go.
I have worked medically in evacuation centres in Australia and NZ 1/2 a dozen times.
The people who are there are all the people who didn’t have anywhere else to go, and while some are lovely, many are not.
|
|
blueshoes
Senior Member
Posts: 609
Likes: 700
Location: Regional Dan-istan
|
Post by blueshoes on Jan 16, 2023 6:32:42 GMT 10
Thankyou for all the comments so far - have been reading anonymously
Some really good food for thought.
I will add 'getting a caravan' to our longer term plans (good call, not sure why we hadn't thought of it) but that's probably something for after we get a bigger house/yard, we don't have anywhere to put one where we are at the moment.
Thankyou Stealth - I missed some of those things and will add them to the pack list
PS an evac center isn't our plan A or plan B, it's more just "if something happens and we get rounded up and stuck in a camp of some sort, what will we wish we had on hand..." - because preparedness isn't just a synonym for 'resilient homesteading'.
Packing an 'evac bag' is like a low-key version of an INCH bag: you hope you're never gonna need it, but if something happens and you're corralled, either we're screwed if it's a genocide camp or prison anyway, but if it's just an "evac center" or equivalent, having some key items handy (a combo lock?) will make life easier. For things like micro-SD's with books etc on it, a small tablet that can read them, and a solar, USB battery pack or some other kind of recharger: those things take time to find or order, but they aren't necessarily hugely expensive. They are still within reach still at the moment. In another year or two they may be unobtanium.
|
|
rosebud
Senior Member
Posts: 141
Likes: 164
|
Post by rosebud on Jan 16, 2023 7:14:56 GMT 10
Are you able or willing to accept family/friend evacuees at your home for a short emergency of about a week?
Would you be welcome at family/friend home if you needed to evacuate in a sudden emergency? Would you want to? Do you have alternatives?
|
|
malewithatail
VIP Member
Posts: 3,963
Likes: 1,380
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
|
Post by malewithatail on Jan 16, 2023 7:26:58 GMT 10
Ive touched on this before.
We have invited all our family members here, now. So far, only one sister and one of her kids is here, mum and step dad say they will die in their house in town, so be it. Other sister and brother in law don't believe anythings gunna happen, so are entrenched in their beach-side unit where they can see the tsunami as it rolls over them.
Certain close friends have been invited, and as for others, if u turn up here u better have self contained accommodation, food for at least 6/12 months, suitable weapons to defend yourself and knowledge to use/maintain them, ammo to suit and be prepared to work at survival in the fields. Water and a suitable camp spot we can supply.
You wanna try sitting on the handlebars whilst everyone else pedals, u gunna be escorted from the farm at gun point if necessary.
Portable dark suckers. When the dark storage unit is full, it must be emptied or replaced before the portable dark sucker can operate again.
That said, we don't expect many as we are a long way out and most around here have farms anyway. By the time the drama has unfoldedd, it will be too late to take any steps for survival, like the frog in boiling water.
|
|
|
|
Post by ausprep130 on Jan 16, 2023 14:22:48 GMT 10
PS : Also have at least 100L of fuel for your car stored at home. Either of your scenarios can quite likely cut local fuel supplies. Be mindful of local fuel storage regulations. Depending upon where you live 5L is the max in some apartments and a single 20L jerry can is about the max in other residential areas. Regional/rural areas allow more. eg farm can store more fuel but over a certain amount has to be marked as hazmat and/or registered with the local fire service. |
|
blueshoes
Senior Member
Posts: 609
Likes: 700
Location: Regional Dan-istan
|
Post by blueshoes on Jan 16, 2023 20:08:54 GMT 10
Are you able or willing to accept family/friend evacuees at your home for a short emergency of about a week? Would you be welcome at family/friend home if you needed to evacuate in a sudden emergency? Would you want to? Do you have alternatives? Yes, Yes, No, and Yes. I'd rather stay in our own home with our own stuff and our own food - and I'm conscious of social debt and don't really like relying on others. If we needed somewhere to sleep because our house burnt down or something, there is spare space at multiple homes in our family as well as other local friends. It would be squashy and we'd rather be in our own house, but the safety net is there. I think I counted five places off the top of my head, spread over a distance of ~400km. Also, it's mutual; if they wanted what space we have available they're welcome to it (and they know it, this is openly discussed, not assumed). We have both family mutual assistance handshake agreements as well as a loosely-defined local MAG. I'm just contingency planning. It's easy to do the small things, it's harder to do the big things but we're working on them too. It's as-well-as, not instead-of. |
|
malewithatail
VIP Member
Posts: 3,963
Likes: 1,380
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
|
Post by malewithatail on Jan 17, 2023 7:46:57 GMT 10
"It's as-well-as, not instead-of. "
The more options you have the better, the more open minded you are, the better.
In conclusion, Bell Labs stated that dark suckers make all our lives much easier. So the next time you look at an electric bulb, remember that it is indeed a dark sucker.
|
|
