spatial
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Post by spatial on Jan 9, 2024 19:24:03 GMT 10
Robust discussion on what happens when grid goes down by an engineer, and subsequent system failures, roads, sewerage, communications
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Jan 10, 2024 7:41:25 GMT 10
I saw this video some time ago. The situation presented here is one of a grid overload, relatively easily fixed by 'load shedding', or switching off parts of the grid to bring the frequency back up, by reducing the loading. Its a completely different story when and EMP?CME has occurred and the whole grid is affected. Load shedding isn't going to help in any way, its failed but providing no major damage has been done, a 'black start' is necessary. Why would the grid be off ? The circuit protection equipment detected an issue and switched it off to save it from damage from, say a fallen high voltage line. Black starts are exactly that, you start off with a generator in a power station, probably a series of large diesels. This enables you to get a fan running, to get a boiler lit, to raise steam, to get a turbine running, to get power flowing to another power station to get a bigger fan running to get a bigger boiler going, etc on up the line. Once you have some spinning reserve on line, you can start to re energize some feeders, initially probably to major cities, then to smaller regional areas and so on down to the rural areas last. All of the above assumes that there has been no major damage to the grid. A few damaged high voltage transformers or computerized switches and the process stops dead. Spare transformer, not likely at a cost of several million each, nor is it necessary in normal times to carry a spare as they are very reliable, and monitored 24/7 for overheating, oil breakdown etc, giving adequate warning of a breakdown and enabling a spare to be procured, or that one to be repaired on site. But, in a CME/EMP situation, all that is useless. A transformer operates on alternating current, or AC. In Australia its 50 cycles per second, the USA its 60. They are not designed for DC, and any DC offset will change the magnetization characteristic of the transformer and alter its efficiency and operation, certainly reducing its power handling capability and affecting its life. When switching power supplies first made an appearance in appliances like TV sets in the early 70's, the supply authorities were worried about their effect on the grid, specifically transformers, as they draw power in a series of current pulses to charge the main capacitor. This approximates a DC waveform and can saturate a transformer well before its reached its maximum output, causing overheating and eventual failure. Better control electronics has overcome most of these issues, but it was still a topic of concern some years ago, and shows that Electrical Engineers realize the potential of DC on the power grid. A CME/EMP is a series of pulses, approximating DC, as are the northern and southern lights when the Aurora Borealis events induced in power infrastructure in northern Canada etc. And they do have issues with induced currents in that country as it did on March 1989 in Quebec, Canada. Here is a link to the mechanism that causes it if you are interested. theconversation.com/a-large-solar-storm-could-knock-out-the-power-grid-and-the-internet-an-electrical-engineer-explains-how-177982Finally, I will finish with a quote from the above link. Just a matter of time It is only a matter of time before the Earth is hit by another geomagnetic storm. A Carrington Event-size storm would be extremely damaging to the electrical and communication systems worldwide with outages lasting into the weeks. If the storm is the size of the Miyake Event, the results would be catastrophic for the world with potential outages lasting months if not longer. Even with space weather warnings from NOAA’s Space Weather Prediction Center, the world would have only a few minutes to a few hours notice. Nobody watches you harder than the people that don’t like you. Give them a show.
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spatial
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Post by spatial on Jan 10, 2024 10:04:35 GMT 10
In the vid he does talk of the Texas event and how the grid nearly collapsed requiring a black start. But also does mention terrorisms and other issues that can take the grid down.
The impacts of the grid going down and the cascading effects on other systems is what I found interesting and relevant for preparedness. For example US cities have ±2 day water supply, impacts on sewerage systems transport and telecommunication. Mobile towers backup batteries and generators but overwhelming usage could take them down. Something like less than a week and comms systems go down. He talks about one way communication like radio and TV and how some of those broadcasters have backup supplies of diesel generators and food so broadcasts can keep going in an extended outage.
MWT - you talk about transformers, that is my biggest worry most are made in Asia and have a 6-12month delivery time. If there is a global destruction due to CME then Australia would have to start our own manufacturing and retooling as it would take many years to source them from Asia. Nuke EMP is a given one can destroy a countries economy, comms infrastructure, starts riots and major mayhem without directly killings any citizens of that country. Like in Gaza China is building underground cities and preparing for such an event. I have read many accounts of people seeing in vision planes falling our to the sky when EMP nukes go off. It has been calculated that 2 high altitude CME nukes would take out 90% of the USA.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Jan 10, 2024 10:31:20 GMT 10
"Nuke EMP is a given one can destroy a countries economy, comms infrastructure, starts riots and major mayhem without directly killings any citizens of that country. Like in Gaza China is building underground cities and preparing for such an event. I have read many accounts of people seeing in vision planes falling our to the sky when EMP nukes go off. It has been calculated that 2 high altitude CME nukes would take out 90% of the USA. "
The perfect weapon, doesn't immediately kill, but causes mass panic which kills. Pleausable deniability, we didn't kill anyone with our nuke, you did it to yourself.
Got your backup comms organized ? Ham radio for those who can, UHF/HF CB for everyone else.
Can you get in contact with your family and get them to your BOL in such a situation ? Have u practiced it ?
Its an extension of your prepping to be ready energy wise. Almost all preppers seem to concentrate on Food and guns, but comms and comfort come into it as well.
Enjoy this moment of your life before it becomes a memory you wish you hadn’t taken for granted.
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spatial
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Post by spatial on Jan 10, 2024 12:28:18 GMT 10
I looked into battery Solar system - just went for short term generator and fuel supply to keep things going for about a week or two. Have enough canning bottles and dehydrating facilities etc to process frozen food from chest freezers etc. Have plenty of candles, wind-up torches/radios BBQ gas and propane. It is only short term and aircon will be down. This thread was more of what happens when grid goes down, purely from an engineers perspective and the problems of restarting power outages, mostly systems are SCADA controlled requiring PC control and coms networks to be operational. - Banking and fuel resupply will be down almost immediately as well as shops, will only accept cash. Need to keep cash in hand. I keep 150-$300 on person just in case need to refuel and the banking system is out.
- Town water supply out in 2 days
- 24 -48h medication that needs to be kept refrigerated becomes an issue. Look at flooding and bushfires within 24h many calls for assistance to deliver meds, people just don't keep any emergency supplies.
- Emergency services will be very limited - roads might be jammed. I am getting any outstanding medial issues dealt with like went to the dentist for the first time in 35y last week. Making final preparations.
- Mobile and internet will be sporadic, out within a week.
- Sewerage 3-4 days no longer working,
- garbage collection which is only weekly will likely not be operational.
Not to mention 9 meals (72) hours to chaos, and rioting and looting beginning, with alarms, security systems down, no cameras police overworked and access to areas would be problematic, all the rat-bags will go crazy. Australia has gone from a country of helping your fellow citizen to looting and stealing as soon as there is a flood or fire evacuation announced.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Jan 10, 2024 14:29:09 GMT 10
Having been involved with SCADA on the local Councils, its a system that is quite flexible, but if a sensor is faulty, it can be a pain to find which one and replace it.
And if more than one is faulty, such as happened when a 33kv line fell onto a 415 v and did some fireworks during a storm, getting the water plant back on line took a great deal of effort. Luckily, spares were available from Brisbane, so one of the ladies in the office drove there and picked them up. We had it operational in a couple of days, but it still took a week to reprogram the SCADA controller properly as the backup program was corrupted.
But in a total grid down situation, spares might not be available, then its plan B, flying and dosing with analogue gauges and calculations, assuming the backup generator is operational. Got your own water supply yet ? What about waste ?
The average person has no idea just what it takes to supply them with water, electric take their wastes away and so on. Take all that away and they will be in panic mode, especially when they get thirsty and hungry, possibly wet and cold as well.
Met some people who were prepared to bug out. Where ? Just away from danger. How do you know which direction danger is in ? God will tells us. I consider that to be blind faith, and not survival orientated at all. We have to do our bit and be sensible. Do you have the means to protect yourselves and car from marauders ? No, God will protect us. That's fine, but I'd be carrying a bang stick as well, just for backup. We don't believe in violence or guns.......Isn't that what the Jews said when they were being rounded up in WW2 ? Anyway, to each their own.
My backup plan is to run, FAST !!
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Jan 10, 2024 14:36:59 GMT 10
What is a black start in detail ?
In the final analysis, knowledge is power.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Jan 10, 2024 14:50:00 GMT 10
Practicality.....
Its already been tested.
The biggest joke on mankind is that computers have started to ask humans to prove they are not a robot.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Jan 24, 2024 14:29:57 GMT 10
Just who has their finger on the 'OFF' button of the power grid ?
So, you've got a rooftop solar system installed, perhaps with battery's and maybe even stand alone at your retreat.
Convenient eh ? Bluetooth connectivity, Wi-Fi so I can see whats happening from anywhere in the world.
Showing off the tech to your friends, you have a sudden, uncomfortable thought.
Who really controls your power system ? Sure, there is an OFF switch, perhaps circuit breakers as well, and some basic security, but who else can turn it off or on at will ?
The electric supply company certainly can, and its part of the connection rules that they must be able to disconnect your system from their network under a fault condition, for 'safety's sake'.
But who else may have access to it ? The manufacturer, and in most cases, they are based in China.
How secure is their data networking ?
No need for an EMP to disable a countries power grid, just turn it off.
And don't think that this applies only to private generation as I'm sure there is a vast amount of grid switching gear and turbines etc that also can be remotely controlled by the manufacturer without the supply authority's knowledge. And, as far as I know, no study has been done as to whether this could be an issue.
I'm also not even sure that switching off the Bluetooth or Wi-Fi would stop this interference with things.
I have the networking turned off on our Victron regulators, and the Big WEI lithium battery packs, but is it really off ? To check, u would need a spectrum analyzer, 5 g is 6 gigs, it may show up any abnormality. Not the sort of kit a hobbyist has just lying around though !
No need to invade, just press some keys on a PC and the country is on its knees.
Or is this just too simple a view ?
Hurry up...and wait !
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spatial
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Post by spatial on Jan 24, 2024 15:09:36 GMT 10
Just who has their finger on the 'OFF' button of the power grid ? So, you've got a rooftop solar system installed, perhaps with battery's and maybe even stand alone at your retreat. Convenient eh ? Bluetooth connectivity, Wi-Fi so I can see whats happening from anywhere in the world. Showing off the tech to your friends, you have a sudden, uncomfortable thought. Who really controls your power system ? Sure, there is an OFF switch, perhaps circuit breakers as well, and some basic security, but who else can turn it off or on at will ? The electric supply company certainly can, and its part of the connection rules that they must be able to disconnect your system from their network under a fault condition, for 'safety's sake'. But who else may have access to it ? The manufacturer, and in most cases, they are based in China. How secure is their data networking ? No need for an EMP to disable a countries power grid, just turn it off. And don't think that this applies only to private generation as I'm sure there is a vast amount of grid switching gear and turbines etc that also can be remotely controlled by the manufacturer without the supply authority's knowledge. And, as far as I know, no study has been done as to whether this could be an issue. I'm also not even sure that switching off the Bluetooth or Wi-Fi would stop this interference with things. I have the networking turned off on our Victron regulators, and the Big WEI lithium battery packs, but is it really off ? To check, u would need a spectrum analyzer, 5 g is 6 gigs, it may show up any abnormality. Not the sort of kit a hobbyist has just lying around though ! No need to invade, just press some keys on a PC and the country is on its knees. Or is this just too simple a view ? Hurry up...and wait ! Hacking is a thing.. But look at Ukraine Russia has wasted thousands of cruise missiles, drones taking out the Ukrainian power supply (power stations, transformers etc..) especially just prior to winter. Governments do have a kill switch to disable all incoming internet traffic by switching of key servers and IP addressing systems. Not sure what they have worked out for star link - I suppose the system sill uses the IP addressing system to deliver or connect to an address. EV vehicles and lots of machinery can be remotely disabled. As posted previously all the modern tractors that the Russians stole from Ukraine were remotely blocked. One or two high altitude nukes will seal the deal, but invoke a like response.
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bug
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Post by bug on Jan 24, 2024 16:33:22 GMT 10
Not "too simple" at all. All Chinese manufacturers are required by the National Security Law to act in the interests of the CCP and do as they are told. This obviously includes malware in their products. The 5G Huawei fiasco brought it to the surface. Now the government definitely cares about their communications infrastructure, so they acted on it. But do you think they care about your off grid solar? Do you think they care about your car? Anything with wifi or any other comms that is made in China will be turned off immediately at the commencement of hostilities.
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bug
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Post by bug on Jan 24, 2024 16:35:56 GMT 10
Just who has their finger on the 'OFF' button of the power grid ? So, you've got a rooftop solar system installed, perhaps with battery's and maybe even stand alone at your retreat. Convenient eh ? Bluetooth connectivity, Wi-Fi so I can see whats happening from anywhere in the world. Showing off the tech to your friends, you have a sudden, uncomfortable thought. Who really controls your power system ? Sure, there is an OFF switch, perhaps circuit breakers as well, and some basic security, but who else can turn it off or on at will ? The electric supply company certainly can, and its part of the connection rules that they must be able to disconnect your system from their network under a fault condition, for 'safety's sake'. But who else may have access to it ? The manufacturer, and in most cases, they are based in China. How secure is their data networking ? No need for an EMP to disable a countries power grid, just turn it off. And don't think that this applies only to private generation as I'm sure there is a vast amount of grid switching gear and turbines etc that also can be remotely controlled by the manufacturer without the supply authority's knowledge. And, as far as I know, no study has been done as to whether this could be an issue. I'm also not even sure that switching off the Bluetooth or Wi-Fi would stop this interference with things. I have the networking turned off on our Victron regulators, and the Big WEI lithium battery packs, but is it really off ? To check, u would need a spectrum analyzer, 5 g is 6 gigs, it may show up any abnormality. Not the sort of kit a hobbyist has just lying around though ! No need to invade, just press some keys on a PC and the country is on its knees. Or is this just too simple a view ? Hurry up...and wait ! Hacking is a thing.. But look at Ukraine Russia has wasted thousands of cruise missiles, drones taking out the Ukrainian power supply (power stations, transformers etc..) especially just prior to winter. Governments do have a kill switch to disable all incoming internet traffic by switching of key servers and IP addressing systems. Not sure what they have worked out for star link - I suppose the system sill uses the IP addressing system to deliver or connect to an address. EV vehicles and lots of machinery can be remotely disabled. As posted previously all the modern tractors that the Russians stole from Ukraine were remotely blocked. One or two high altitude nukes will seal the deal, but invoke a like response. One thing that makes no sense is the focus on EVs. As Spatial correctly stated, the tractors were remotely turned off. These were ICE vehicles, just like regular cars. It makes no difference at all what powers your engine. If it has remote comms, it can, and will be turned off when it suits the manufacturer.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Jan 25, 2024 7:30:33 GMT 10
That's a good point, its not just infrastructure, but vehicles as well. Maybe, if you are out of radio range from a cell station u may get away with it, but the satellites are also getting more powerful and large dishes are no longer necessary for reliable comms in remote areas.
You can run, but you can't hide.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Jan 25, 2024 8:00:51 GMT 10
You got a 'smart' house, phone, TV etc ?
One channel available, the Govt propaganda one, no choice.
Only allowed to communicate with immediate family members and 'approved' Govt agencies.
So easy now to control the populace and they don't even realize, like the slow boiling frog, when they wake up it will be too late.
Creating scapegoats does not solve the problem.
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Jan 25, 2024 15:09:57 GMT 10
TV is generally a waste of time anyway, it’s mostly all crap, so I wouldn’t miss it. All you need is a big flatscreen, a DVD player, and a good copy of The Postman. Which is basically what I have at my retreat.
I’ve got a dumb burner phone ($29 worth), and I only have a smart google hub thing so my grandson can ask it to play fart noises. Although I shat a brick when he asked it how to destroy the universe. It’s also good for playing militant music whilst doing the ironing (like Trigger by Mississippi Twilight).
Can those dirty reds turns off your wifi device if you don’t have internet access?
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Jan 25, 2024 15:51:03 GMT 10
Yes they can. If no wifi, then Bluetooth and I've seen miniature satellite transceivers in a one inch sq package, including the aerial.
It is generally assumed that the technology we have access to now is actually ten years behind what the military, and elites have, so I fully expect they have miniature satellite transceivers even smaller now, possibly one chip solution disguised as a standard integrated circuit.
When I purchased the new lithium battery packs for the extra power systems here, I didn't get the comms package. Just as well !
It's good to be aware of these possibilities.
Oh no, not another learning experience !
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bug
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Post by bug on Jan 26, 2024 9:47:44 GMT 10
You got a 'smart' house, phone, TV etc ? One channel available, the Govt propaganda one, no choice. Only allowed to communicate with immediate family members and 'approved' Govt agencies. So easy now to control the populace and they don't even realize, like the slow boiling frog, when they wake up it will be too late. Creating scapegoats does not solve the problem. They didn't need to bother with that during medical apartheid. All stations were running government propaganda, willingly. We threw out our TV and haven't looked back.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Jan 26, 2024 11:07:59 GMT 10
I do have the free VAST TV channels in the radio room, not for general entertainment, but for the news.
I also watch the ABC 7 pm news via i view, as we have unlimited satellite internet, so its quick enough.
As for the so called 'entertainment' program's, they are mostly propaganda from the elites, bending thinking to their view of the world.
I used to be a Star Trek fan (Still like the old Star Trek from 20 + years ago), but even that's become so new worldish and unbelievable, its all rubbish now.
Science tells us how, the Bible tells us why.
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Post by Joey on Jan 26, 2024 11:57:49 GMT 10
I haven't even tuned my tv into the free to air channels in about a decade now. The tv is just used for the Xbox, streaming movies and the missus watching her foreign tv shows on youtube
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bug
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Post by bug on Jan 26, 2024 12:27:20 GMT 10
I do have the free VAST TV channels in the radio room, not for general entertainment, but for the news. I also watch the ABC 7 pm news via i view, as we have unlimited satellite internet, so its quick enough. As for the so called 'entertainment' program's, they are mostly propaganda from the elites, bending thinking to their view of the world. I used to be a Star Trek fan (Still like the old Star Trek from 20 + years ago), but even that's become so new worldish and unbelievable, its all rubbish now. Science tells us how, the Bible tells us why. The 'news' contains more fiction content than the TV dramas do.
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