feralemma
Senior Member
Posts: 398 
Likes: 540
|
Post by feralemma on Mar 31, 2021 18:00:55 GMT 10
I'm with Tim Horton in that I would rather people not know where we are or what we have, other than those we are already close to. The excepetion to that is that I wouldn't have a problem taking items into town (mostly meat or grain) in order to sell or trade them.
|
|
|
|
Post by milspec on Mar 31, 2021 20:46:20 GMT 10
I'm with Tim Horton in that I would rather people not know where we are or what we have, other than those we are already close to. The excepetion to that is that I wouldn't have a problem taking items into town (mostly meat or grain) in order to sell or trade them. Realistically one of the real challenges would have to be how to protect yourself and your resources once you are recognised as a reliable supplier of certain commodities. In today's world one would suggest you sell a bit here and a bit there, but travelling to here and there in a post SHTF world probably wouldn't be so easy. These would be the kind of issues folks have had to deal with in many real world localised SHTF situations in the last century. |
|
malewithatail
VIP Member
Posts: 3,963 
Likes: 1,380
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
|
Post by malewithatail on Apr 1, 2021 7:34:35 GMT 10
That's why local markets for exchange of produce will be important. Local, as you will be known in yr local area and it should be safer. That said, I wouldn't go unarmed to anything after TSHTF. Also, there will not be fuel to "waste" on travelling to far, so local wins again. Being rural means that you should be able to control who visits your property. What weapon ? A 12 G sawn off double barrel !
Yesterdays technology, solving todays problems, tomorrow.
|
|
|
|
Post by Stealth on Apr 1, 2021 11:08:39 GMT 10
Hmmm... Definitely skills for me. I'd have to barter for a doctor's assistance, builder's experience, heck, even most basic mechanical skills are beyond me. I don't like to admit it, but the first step to fixing a problem is admitting that it exists  . I'm definitely of the tech generation and my skills are more firmly seated in ones and zeros than tilling the land. But we can't all be skilled in everything and what I can't do I make up for with the ability to crochet granny square blankets. I do have a minor backup plan for barterables. I make a pretty great bevvy (if I do say so myself) and have a good supply to get the ball rolling for lubricating palms in bartering situations. And if there's one thing that I've learned from history docos, alcohol of almost any type becomes an extremely valuable commodity. Obviously I'd need a supply of the base products to make it but thankfully I have a few options around who I'm sure would be pleased to offload some for a share of the finished results. And I think that's where most day to day bartering will occur. I suspect that when it comes to getting services from skilled professionals you're probably going to need more than just some spare eggs or a block of home-made cheese. For MOST things you'll probably get by bartering like for like. Food for food etc. But the bigger things like needing a tooth extracted, or plumbing repaired etc I suspect something more shiny will be required. |
|
lonewolf
Senior Member
Posts: 101
Likes: 68
|
Post by lonewolf on Apr 2, 2021 22:42:20 GMT 10
Im not interested in shiny meaningless tokens to trade with. The monetary/usary system needs to be abolished in favor of a pay it forward type of economy imo. Id much rather be paid in kindness than in gold and silver.
"Enlightened beings are magnanimous givers,bestowing whatever they have with equanimity,without regret,without hoping for reward,without seeking honor,without coveting material benefits,but only to rescue and safeguard all living beings."
|
|
spatial
Senior Member
Posts: 2,396
Likes: 1,560
|
Post by spatial on Apr 3, 2021 9:01:32 GMT 10
Im not interested in shiny meaningless tokens to trade with. The monetary/usary system needs to be abolished in favor of a pay it forward type of economy imo. Id much rather be paid in kindness than in gold and silver. "Enlightened beings are magnanimous givers,bestowing whatever they have with equanimity,without regret,without hoping for reward,without seeking honor,without coveting material benefits,but only to rescue and safeguard all living beings." Sounds like socialism/communism to me - it simply does not work. Why would a person go through the torture of studding medicine, and working long stress full days just to be paid in kindness when working as a cleaner in a supermarket would bring the same reward. |
|
bce1
Ausprep Staff 
Posts: 819
Likes: 1,581
|
Post by bce1 on Apr 3, 2021 9:24:34 GMT 10
Im not interested in shiny meaningless tokens to trade with. The monetary/usary system needs to be abolished in favor of a pay it forward type of economy imo. Id much rather be paid in kindness than in gold and silver. "Enlightened beings are magnanimous givers,bestowing whatever they have with equanimity,without regret,without hoping for reward,without seeking honor,without coveting material benefits,but only to rescue and safeguard all living beings." I’d rather be paid in shiny meaningless tokens! Sorry, not trying to take the piss, I get your point but the ‘system’ has evolved to where it is now for lots of reasons. Yes, it’s broken and yes it’s contributing to the destruction of the planet and infinite growth will destroy us all. But as Spatial says not all labour has the same intrinsic value and an egalitarian system that says it does will fail. It has literally been this way for at least 10,000 years!! Labour and goods hold the value of what someone is prepared to pay for them, this will continue within a barter system. Antibiotics to a man with a child dying from infection is worth more than anything else. Lots of reason to hate supply and demand economics but it’s awfully close to being hard wired in our brains. |
|
malewithatail
VIP Member
Posts: 3,963
Likes: 1,380
Location: Northern Rivers NSW
|
Post by malewithatail on Apr 3, 2021 9:41:50 GMT 10
As I've discussed before, knowledge will be the new currency. Knowing what and how to do something, such as repair a plough, or install a 2 way radio system for a community, or build/repair a short wave radio, build a gasifier to make a gas that can run an engine with no petroleum fuel needed, that's the sort of currency that will be needed and freely tradeable for food and so on.
I've never been afraid to learn something new, so have a vast knowledge of most trades and can fix/make almost anything. You will need to make yourself a indispensable part of your community, both for your own survival, and the future survival of society, when it kicks off afterwards.
For example, I'm at present designing a small steam turbine, that can be built from an old hot water system tank and will provide enough electric power for running a small fridge, charging a number of radio battery's and running some lights. Basic engineering, but a necessary item after TSHTF. Its a low pressure, condensing type of turbine, not as efficient as a non condensing superheated type, but safer and able to be constructed by anyone with basic hand tools, including the turbine runner itself. The project after that is going to be a wood gas generator (producer gas, downdraft type Pederick model), to produce a gas suitable for a spark ignition engine. Research various types as some create more tar than others and will gun an engine up.Millions of machines were driven by this gas during WW2 and there are many plans for them on the net. Get familiar with the technology as petrol will be gone after the collapse. It does work and depending on the type of wood you use, you can get about 60 % of the power that petrol gives. My original gas producer and a 3.5 kva 240 v generator, were destroyed in a shed fire some years ago. I'm now collecting the bits needed from the tip as I see them. I suggest you start doing the same as electricity is almost a necessity for any modern society.
Two wrongs are only just the beginning.
|
|
lonewolf
Senior Member
Posts: 101
Likes: 68
|
Post by lonewolf on Apr 3, 2021 20:27:08 GMT 10
Im not interested in shiny meaningless tokens to trade with. The monetary/usary system needs to be abolished in favor of a pay it forward type of economy imo. Id much rather be paid in kindness than in gold and silver. "Enlightened beings are magnanimous givers,bestowing whatever they have with equanimity,without regret,without hoping for reward,without seeking honor,without coveting material benefits,but only to rescue and safeguard all living beings." Sounds like socialism/communism to me - it simply does not work. Why would a person go through the torture of studding medicine, and working long stress full days just to be paid in kindness when working as a cleaner in a supermarket would bring the same reward. Dont believe it to be socialist or communist myself, possibly too altruistic for this realm.
Sad to think that the only reason one would put themselves through as you say "torture" studying medicine, would be just for money, but its true for the most part nonetheless.
|
|
lonewolf
Senior Member
Posts: 101
Likes: 68
|
Post by lonewolf on Apr 3, 2021 20:31:19 GMT 10
Im not interested in shiny meaningless tokens to trade with. The monetary/usary system needs to be abolished in favor of a pay it forward type of economy imo. Id much rather be paid in kindness than in gold and silver. "Enlightened beings are magnanimous givers,bestowing whatever they have with equanimity,without regret,without hoping for reward,without seeking honor,without coveting material benefits,but only to rescue and safeguard all living beings." I’d rather be paid in shiny meaningless tokens! Sorry, not trying to take the piss, I get your point but the ‘system’ has evolved to where it is now for lots of reasons. Yes, it’s broken and yes it’s contributing to the destruction of the planet and infinite growth will destroy us all. But as Spatial says not all labour has the same intrinsic value and an egalitarian system that says it does will fail. It has literally been this way for at least 10,000 years!! Labour and goods hold the value of what someone is prepared to pay for them, this will continue within a barter system. Antibiotics to a man with a child dying from infection is worth more than anything else. Lots of reason to hate supply and demand economics but it’s awfully close to being hard wired in our brains.
I understand, not going to happen in my lifetime or my kids but one can hope.
Picture this, your neighbour has a child in need of antibiotics or they may possibly die without them, would you freely give if you had it or would you ask for trade of one kind or another? Most people are greedy so will either ignore the situation and or lie, but there are a few who will freely give to save lives.
|
|
|
|
Post by milspec on Apr 3, 2021 21:12:33 GMT 10
In the present day, the problem is equally that there are many people with a mindset that they are owed some kind of support from 'the system'. Altruism is fine and a general desire to serve one's community is noble, but It is hardly greedy to seek some reward for one's efforts and sacrifices to further one's skills and capabilities. It's not like either perspective is mutually exclusive either. The end result comes down to one's character ... and there is plenty of variety there  |
|
bce1
Ausprep Staff
Posts: 819
Likes: 1,581
|
Post by bce1 on Apr 4, 2021 12:48:20 GMT 10
It all comes back to life boat ethics..... plus it’s tribal.
Part of the tribe - yes.
Not part of the tribe - no.
It also depends on your disaster...... multi-generational grid down scenario those antibiotics are beyond worth there weight in gold and are simply irreplaceable.
So someone else’s kids, not part of group, then no, I wouldn’t give them my ABs. But I also wouldn’t screw them for everything they have. I simply wouldn’t trade. I wouldn’t tell them I have ABs. I don’t think that makes me evil, I am simply prioritising my family over someone else’s.
The analogy carries on to every other human need - the whole point of preparedness is being prepared, you cannot give it all away.
|
|
lonewolf
Senior Member
Posts: 101
Likes: 68
|
Post by lonewolf on Apr 4, 2021 21:21:30 GMT 10
In the present day, the problem is equally that there are many people with a mindset that they are owed some kind of support from 'the system'. Altruism is fine and a general desire to serve one's community is noble, but It is hardly greedy to seek some reward for one's efforts and sacrifices to further one's skills and capabilities. It's not like either perspective is mutually exclusive either. The end result comes down to one's character ... and there is plenty of variety there I agree, if you have to rely on gov handouts then you are part of their system unless you are able to use it to your advantage.
Altruism imo is misrepresented by the news media in the present day "propaganda", you will find more people who rally together to survive than those who will not.
|
|
lonewolf
Senior Member
Posts: 101
Likes: 68
|
Post by lonewolf on Apr 4, 2021 21:28:18 GMT 10
It all comes back to life boat ethics..... plus it’s tribal. Part of the tribe - yes. Not part of the tribe - no. It also depends on your disaster...... multi-generational grid down scenario those antibiotics are beyond worth there weight in gold and are simply irreplaceable. So someone else’s kids, not part of group, then no, I wouldn’t give them my ABs. But I also wouldn’t screw them for everything they have. I simply wouldn’t trade. I wouldn’t tell them I have ABs. I don’t think that makes me evil, I am simply prioritising my family over someone else’s. The analogy carries on to every other human need - the whole point of preparedness is being prepared, you cannot give it all away. Hmm, those not part of the tribe could become much needed parts of your tribe in the future. How long is the shelf life of your AB's ?
I dont think you are evil, just missing my point.
|
|
spatial
Senior Member
Posts: 2,396
Likes: 1,560
|
Post by spatial on Apr 4, 2021 23:02:21 GMT 10
Bartering is back to basics of capitalism, supply and demand. Demand is more than supply the price goes up, If one gave antibiotics to everyone that needed it - supply of antibiotics will be exhausted in a week. Make it free the demand goes up exponentially.
It is expensive and hard work to become a MD. It is also one of the professions with the highest suicide rate - as it is a tough gig. The doctor that does work for free will be burnt out in 6 months and be basically useless..
|
|
lonewolf
Senior Member
Posts: 101
Likes: 68
|
Post by lonewolf on Apr 4, 2021 23:33:56 GMT 10
Bartering is back to basics of capitalism, supply and demand. Demand is more than supply the price goes up, If one gave antibiotics to everyone that needed it - supply of antibiotics will be exhausted in a week. Make it free the demand goes up exponentially. It is expensive and hard work to become a MD. It is also one of the professions with the highest suicide rate - as it is a tough gig. The doctor that does work for free will be burnt out in 6 months and be basically useless.. The current monetary currency system is a scam. What we have now is cronyism not capitalism. Here is a good 30 minute documentary that explains in detail. Be sure to watch the whole series, well worth it.
Im also certain that this covid issue is just another way to create debt, same way the 2008 gfc was, 911 was.
|
|
grumble
Senior Member
Posts: 457
Likes: 778
|
Post by grumble on Apr 5, 2021 8:31:48 GMT 10
It all comes back to life boat ethics..... plus it’s tribal. Part of the tribe - yes. Not part of the tribe - no. It also depends on your disaster...... multi-generational grid down scenario those antibiotics are beyond worth there weight in gold and are simply irreplaceable. So someone else’s kids, not part of group, then no, I wouldn’t give them my ABs. But I also wouldn’t screw them for everything they have. I simply wouldn’t trade. I wouldn’t tell them I have ABs. I don’t think that makes me evil, I am simply prioritising my family over someone else’s. The analogy carries on to every other human need - the whole point of preparedness is being prepared, you cannot give it all away. Hmm, those not part of the tribe could become much needed parts of your tribe in the future. How long is the shelf life of your AB's ?
I dont think you are evil, just missing my point.
Based on historical incidents from my own families experiences that occurred during dark times in the realm of humanity people are generally nicer when comfortable and safe rather than scrambling to survive just another day. Good deeds were repaid with violence and betrayal more often than not and it wasn't because people are inherently evil but more because they are desperate Since those dark times society has devolved even more , into more individualism and expression of individualism than collective tribalism this has resulted with more people being disenfranchised and becoming further isolationist and individualist in mind set and a stronger belief in self entitlement over the needs of others Combine that with the collective of resentment towards those that have vs those that have not , mental health issues and narcotic reliance ( abuse ) for a multitude of reasons you have one very nasty brewing pot Those with a good heart and kindness will want to carry a big stick History does demonstrate though those that were kind and merciful were generally given the same in return 'most'of the time but not all the time and that mercy might just be a quick death rather than a long drawn out one For people to be actively engaged in a pay it forward economy it would imply all their basic and higher needs have been met and covered and everyone is on reasonably the same footing |
|
Tim Horton
Senior Member
Posts: 1,945
Likes: 1,996
|
Post by Tim Horton on Apr 5, 2021 9:27:08 GMT 10
A year old now, but I have seen this before...
+ + +
Because he's not my kid (both mine are very hard workers) I'm not allowed to insert my boot into his anal cavity. Butt he isn't slow to tell me if the food I provide isn't to his liking. Grrrrr
+ + +
It appears it was a short term issue with a definite end date to it.. That is one thing, but an issue with no end in sight would lead to a meeting of minds between spouses.. It was not pretty, but one unfairly allowed this to become an issue between them..
Moving on...
+ + +
"Enlightened beings are magnanimous givers,bestowing whatever they have with equanimity,without regret,without hoping for reward,without seeking honor,without coveting material benefits,but only to rescue and safeguard all living beings."
+ + +
At first glance.. This appears to be out of the Carl Marx type play book...
Many times the chant that is regaled at the community rally where a lack of attendance would be noticed and dealt with, the things said and practiced behind closed doors at home will be quite different..
Personally going to stick to close to home, close to the chest barter plan.. Unless shown a better way..
My 5 cents of opinion..
|
|
frostbite
VIP Member
Posts: 5,719
Likes: 7,119
|
Post by frostbite on Apr 5, 2021 10:01:26 GMT 10
Nice quote of mine, Tim. The useless eater is now a teacher, still lazy, and was only complaining last night that after the current week long break he has to work for 10 weeks before his next break. 6hrs a day, 5 days a week must be tough. Whereas my son worked 36hrs straight last week. Probably totalled 100hrs on the tools that week.
|
|
lonewolf
Senior Member
Posts: 101
Likes: 68
|
Post by lonewolf on Apr 5, 2021 23:44:40 GMT 10
Based on historical incidents from my own families experiences that occurred during dark times in the realm of humanity people are generally nicer when comfortable and safe rather than scrambling to survive just another day. Good deeds were repaid with violence and betrayal more often than not and it wasn't because people are inherently evil but more because they are desperate. I agree, desparate times often call for desperate measures. As milspec said earlier "the end result comes down to one's character ... and there is plenty of variety there". Since those dark times society has devolved even more , into more individualism and expression of individualism than collective tribalism this has resulted with more people being disenfranchised and becoming further isolationist and individualist in mind set and a stronger belief in self entitlement over the needs of others. Combine that with the collective of resentment towards those that have vs those that have not , mental health issues and narcotic reliance ( abuse ) for a multitude of reasons you have one very nasty brewing pot. Exactly how the powers that be like it, divide and conquer as it were. This is why i tell people not to watch the tv, get rid of the smartphone and wake up. Those with a good heart and kindness will want to carry a big stick I have two big sticks, just in case . History does demonstrate though those that were kind and merciful were generally given the same in return 'most'of the time but not all the time and that mercy might just be a quick death rather than a long drawn out one. Well that can be debated ad finitum, realistically the hate and malice in the hearts and minds of generations past and present may outweigh the merciful and kind and this is why the world is what it is nowadays. For people to be actively engaged in a pay it forward economy it would imply all their basic and higher needs have been met and covered and everyone is on reasonably the same footing. I agree, but i like to believe it could be done, even small scale to start with, which usually means starting with family first and then spread out to "good" friends and neighbors, as long as that big stick is at the ready! |
|
. I'm definitely of the tech generation and my skills are more firmly seated in ones and zeros than tilling the land. But we can't all be skilled in everything and what I can't do I make up for with the ability to crochet granny square blankets.
