tomatoes
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Post by tomatoes on Aug 25, 2020 12:05:07 GMT 10
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Beno
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Post by Beno on Aug 25, 2020 16:40:47 GMT 10
I hope botulism doesn’t go up as a result. Canning is something you want to get right 100% of the time. Speaking of which i got a hankering for some homemade strawberry jam right now.
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blueshoes
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Post by blueshoes on Aug 26, 2020 20:00:53 GMT 10
It's really hard to find canning guidance for reusing normal jars - i grew up using them for jam but websites all say "use (expensive) specialised canning jars, pasta jars will break under pressure"
I find the safety buttons on the lids helpful, canning jars don't have those
Anyone know any sites that give more helpful guidance than just "don't do it they might break"?
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tomatoes
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Post by tomatoes on Aug 26, 2020 20:25:39 GMT 10
I use to use any old jars for jam too. But they also use to say to just fill hot and put the lid on. But “button” got sucked in as it cooled.
Now that the recommendations have changed to water bath even for jam, that’s what I do. I’ve read of some good arguments for doing the water bath, and I know that I’m a very low risk taking person when it comes to food poisoning, so if I didn’t follow all the guidelines I’d just end up throwing out the food, so better to make everything as safe as possible.
Because of the water bath I use mason jars. I don’t want to spend hours making jam to risk having a jar break.
I figure that I rarely give jam away so I don’t often have to buy extra jars. I have quite a lot of jars now. I really have no need to use old tomato paste jars for jam making.
I did a lot of searching about this a few years ago as I’d bought some cheaper jars from Kmart to use for jam for gifts, but even though they were labelled canning jars they didn’t even have the button in the middle of the lid! I gave away a couple of the jars and told the people to refrigerate - I did everything right but just couldn’t guarantee it’s safety. I threw out what was left after a month and used the rest of the jars for buttons and dry herbs, etc.
I do think you need either a two part lid or a lid with rubber seal for the hot water bath to be effective. I think The air is suppose to escape and then it makes the seal. That can’t happen with a normal lid.
Long, rambling answer. Short answer - I couldn’t find a site that tells you how to do it safely - at least not one that I trust.
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kelabar
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Post by kelabar on Aug 26, 2020 20:45:02 GMT 10
Guessing here, but the changes in recommendations might be because it is 'evil' to use sugar these days. It is an excellent preservative.
Struggling to remember but my family made jam for decades. Used any jar available. Stuck the clear (cellophane?) seal on top and put the lid on. If the lid had rusted away, just used the seal with a rubber band. Very few if any problems. If mould grew on it after opening we scraped that bit off and used the rest of the jam.
The 'canning' jars were for preserving fruit.
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dirtdiva
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Post by dirtdiva on Aug 26, 2020 21:49:49 GMT 10
Guessing here, but the changes in recommendations might be because it is 'evil' to use sugar these days. It is an excellent preservative. Struggling to remember but my family made jam for decades. Used any jar available. Stuck the clear (cellophane?) seal on top and put the lid on. If the lid had rusted away, just used the seal with a rubber band. Very few if any problems. If mould grew on it after opening we scraped that bit off and used the rest of the jam. The 'canning' jars were for preserving fruit. Not sure about there but in the U.S. hardly anything comes in glass anymore ( plastic) so unless you have a stash you are stuck buying new jars for those just starting. Much of the issue with canning is that everything is tempered as far as information out of fear of litigation of liability if someone gets sick making something the way you instructed etc. Everyone loved to sue in the U.S. |
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shinester
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Post by shinester on Aug 26, 2020 22:37:20 GMT 10
Botulism doesn't occur for foods that you use hot water canning, aka high acid foods.
There's not really data from canning companies about preserving in normal jars, because they want you to keep paying for their lids for profit. I'm not against profit. This is my thinking, obviously make your own mind up.
The jar you buy the pasta sauce in, is pressure canned, which is why it lasts, except they do it at industrial levels. They both work the same, when you heat up the contents the air at the top expands and some of it pushes out the seal. This creates the vacuum seal [technically not a vacuum, a lower air pressure than outside]. Everything inside the jar heats up past 125C killing any and all pathogens inside, essentially making it sterile. Of course the guides of similar sized jars aren't going to be much different in lengths of times and if you like you could leave it in for longer to be sure. I often use that time as extra cooking time, great for soups. So you're left with the same steralised contents with a vacuum seal. Modern jars use a silicone ring that in my mind are far more durable and are endlessly reusable. Of course you make sure it still has a good seal, aka pop when you open it. I've haven't had a single issue with modern jars, the bell jars, I've had some small numbers of issues, such as lost seals [trying to reuse or tightening the ring too much]. Been doing it for a few years now.
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dirtdiva
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Post by dirtdiva on Aug 26, 2020 23:52:27 GMT 10
Botulism doesn't occur for foods that you use hot water canning, aka high acid foods. There's not really data from canning companies about preserving in normal jars, because they want you to keep paying for their lids for profit. I'm not against profit. This is my thinking, obviously make your own mind up. The jar you buy the pasta sauce in, is pressure canned, which is why it lasts, except they do it at industrial levels. They both work the same, when you heat up the contents the air at the top expands and some of it pushes out the seal. This creates the vacuum seal [technically not a vacuum, a lower air pressure than outside]. Everything inside the jar heats up past 125C killing any and all pathogens inside, essentially making it sterile. Of course the guides of similar sized jars aren't going to be much different in lengths of times and if you like you could leave it in for longer to be sure. I often use that time as extra cooking time, great for soups. So you're left with the same steralised contents with a vacuum seal. Modern jars use a silicone ring that in my mind are far more durable and are endlessly reusable. Of course you make sure it still has a good seal, aka pop when you open it. I've haven't had a single issue with modern jars, the bell jars, I've had some small numbers of issues, such as lost seals [trying to reuse or tightening the ring too much]. Been doing it for a few years now. I started having an issue a few years back with the Ball jar lids buckling in the pressure canner. My husband was helping me and tightening the lids and as usual tightened them down too much. These days you have to be careful just to finger tighten the Ball lids or they will buckle. Also Ball just changed their lids and are supposed to be BPA free now but the downside I have heard complaints of them not keeping their seal. I think maybe they have not worked the kinks out of the new lids yet. Also the new lids are not supposed to be heated before using now per their box. |
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blueshoes
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Post by blueshoes on Aug 27, 2020 19:13:43 GMT 10
Not sure about there but in the U.S. hardly anything comes in glass anymore ( plastic) so unless you have a stash you are stuck buying new jars for those just starting. peanut butter is in plastic jars now, but pasta sauce, some stir fry sauces, "cheese spread", pesto, pickles, pickled onions, some jams/lemon butter, and probably a few other things are still in glass jars with metal lids |
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dirtdiva
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Post by dirtdiva on Aug 27, 2020 20:53:59 GMT 10
Mayo jars used to be the best. Now they are plastic.
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Tim Horton
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Post by Tim Horton on Aug 28, 2020 13:01:55 GMT 10
More info...
I ran across some third hand info that some stores in the US are breaking down cases of jars to sell individually for as much as $4 EACH.... OUCH
Another short you tube by someone saying they found Chinese jars at one of the Dollar stores (US) Saying the jars and rings worked well, but the lids were so flimsy they would not use them for pressure canning, only water bath..
Not sure of location for either of these tidbits..
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Post by Stealth on Aug 28, 2020 18:23:49 GMT 10
I think home canning isn't as common over here in Aus as it is in the US. At least, that's the vibe I've gotten. It's pretty common over here in the older generations to re-use commercial jars (jam, vegemite, sauces etc) without dramas. I've had plenty of re-used jars that my mother in law has sent over with preserves etc. that she's made and they've been fine. At least, none of us are dead yet! Haha.
I have quite a few ball jars that I need to replace the rings because ones that I have haven't fared well. Ok, I put them in the dishwasher without thinking. Sue me. Lmao.
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dirtdiva
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Post by dirtdiva on Aug 28, 2020 23:18:05 GMT 10
More info... I ran across some third hand info that some stores in the US are breaking down cases of jars to sell individually for as much as $4 EACH.... OUCH Another short you tube by someone saying they found Chinese jars at one of the Dollar stores (US) Saying the jars and rings worked well, but the lids were so flimsy they would not use them for pressure canning, only water bath.. Not sure of location for either of these tidbits.. I have not seen stores in my area breaking them down individually but it is possible. Many times people will buy cases of canning jars or any product that people suspect there will be a run on and stockpile it. When the product runs out then they will put it back on Amazon or ebay for 3 to 4 times the cost. While price gouging like that is illegal they get away with it. So while legitimate gardeners who depend on those crops every year struggle to find products they need some a#$hole is sitting on a couple warehouses of this stuff. It's the American way . Tis why I stockpile years of supplies in advance. I can sometimes 1000 to 1200 jars a year. |
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kelabar
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Post by kelabar on Aug 29, 2020 1:29:41 GMT 10
While price gouging like that is illegal they get away with it. I may be a complete bastard (it has been suggested before) but I don't have a problem with so-called 'price-gouging'. To me it is just capitalism. You take the good with the bad. I buy more batteries than I would realistically need if I think times will get bad. I would also consider buying coffee and cigarettes depending on circumstances. The batteries I could use but I'm not a smoker or coffee drinker. 'Price-gouging' actually has a good effect on learning. Joe Public thinks: "Gosh, last time when things were bad it cost a lot to buy batteries, maybe I should buy some now when things are still good and they are cheap." This helps us all. Make no mistake, I wouldn't do this with medicines or anything really critical. But supply and demand are the basis of our trading system are they not? If you want canning jars, then buy them regardless of cost. Or buy them now before they are expensive. Or to be even more blunt, I think people are saying "The gov should make sure I can have everything I want when I want it." Is this free trade or something else?  |
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dirtdiva
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Post by dirtdiva on Aug 29, 2020 2:54:00 GMT 10
I personally don't have a problem with it within reason and like you I keep a stash of barter items myself. Food preservation for me is probably one of those things( for me) that comes close to that line, along with medicine. Some things I would draw the line at like you. I prep so I am not in that predicament if I can avoid it.
I also look at it that I keep certain things in large quantity. If you are going to live the lifestyle of growing and preserving your own food then you should have thought ahead and stocked up on the supplies that it requires. With a huge stash of canning jars that I have maintained for decades, buckets of lids and canning salt I guess that is easy for me to say. It is like everything else once the SHTF it is too late to start prepping. Then people whine because they can't get them or they have to pay a fortune for them. I just had someone call me last weekend and ask if I had any extra lids. Now normally I would share if so inclined but I tried to tell this person months ago to stock up and she laughed.
Guess I got the last laugh. See you aren't the only bastard. I think she may have just learned an important life lesson and I was glad to assist her. Let's hope karma doesn't return the favor.
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Tim Horton
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Post by Tim Horton on Aug 29, 2020 3:51:43 GMT 10
I just had someone call me last weekend and ask if I had any extra lids. Now normally I would share if so inclined but I tried to tell this person months ago to stock up and she laughed.
+++
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink...
You do what you can at the moment... And let people live with the decisions they make.. And you move on...
CCC
Our apple season is off to a good start.. We have a 30 liter tub of slices dried for winter bunny food.. also have 14 (?) liter of ground ends and pieces canned for chicken feed.. House smells wonderful of apples in the dehydrators.. Todays mission is makeing goose berry jam, and black current jelly...
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Post by Stealth on Aug 29, 2020 8:40:23 GMT 10
I just had someone call me last weekend and ask if I had any extra lids. Now normally I would share if so inclined but I tried to tell this person months ago to stock up and she laughed. +++ You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink... You do what you can at the moment... And let people live with the decisions they make.. And you move on... CCC Our apple season is off to a good start.. We have a 30 liter tub of slices dried for winter bunny food.. also have 14 (?) liter of ground ends and pieces canned for chicken feed.. House smells wonderful of apples in the dehydrators.. Todays mission is makeing goose berry jam, and black current jelly... UGH. I can't stand it when you get someone that you've actively tried to help suddenly come 'crying poor'. Sorry, you were told that this would happen and you ignored it. I'm with you. Normally I would absolutely help those in need. But that would really irk me. I'm not a 'told you so' type. But I'm also not going to help someone that refuses my help from recommendations earlier on. On that note, I'm going to see if I can get replacements now that I know they're in short order! Probably a bit too late, but nothing ventured nothing gained. |
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dirtdiva
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Post by dirtdiva on Aug 29, 2020 9:09:59 GMT 10
I just had someone call me last weekend and ask if I had any extra lids. Now normally I would share if so inclined but I tried to tell this person months ago to stock up and she laughed. +++ You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink... You do what you can at the moment... And let people live with the decisions they make.. And you move on... CCC Our apple season is off to a good start.. We have a 30 liter tub of slices dried for winter bunny food.. also have 14 (?) liter of ground ends and pieces canned for chicken feed.. House smells wonderful of apples in the dehydrators.. Todays mission is makeing goose berry jam, and black current jelly... I love the smell of apples in the dehydrator. Apples in Tennessee aren't ready yet. Are your gooseberries ready now. My gooseberries ripen in May/June. Not really a fan of black currant but I have bushes so they usually end up chicken feed. Today's mission for me was tomato sauce in jars, corn in the dehydrator, peppers cut up for dehydrator tomorrow and picked 4 five gallon buckets of shell beans. |
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dirtdiva
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Post by dirtdiva on Aug 29, 2020 9:19:52 GMT 10
I just had someone call me last weekend and ask if I had any extra lids. Now normally I would share if so inclined but I tried to tell this person months ago to stock up and she laughed. +++ You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink... You do what you can at the moment... And let people live with the decisions they make.. And you move on... CCC Our apple season is off to a good start.. We have a 30 liter tub of slices dried for winter bunny food.. also have 14 (?) liter of ground ends and pieces canned for chicken feed.. House smells wonderful of apples in the dehydrators.. Todays mission is makeing goose berry jam, and black current jelly... UGH. I can't stand it when you get someone that you've actively tried to help suddenly come 'crying poor'. Sorry, you were told that this would happen and you ignored it. I'm with you. Normally I would absolutely help those in need. But that would really irk me. I'm not a 'told you so' type. But I'm also not going to help someone that refuses my help from recommendations earlier on. On that note, I'm going to see if I can get replacements now that I know they're in short order! Probably a bit too late, but nothing ventured nothing gained. I am with you Stealth it rubs me the wrong way too. I would try on the replacements. " Normal " high canning season is winding down. By October frost is here for most of the U.S. and gardening should slow down. Maybe then Ball will catch up on their manufacturing to resupply everyone in your part of the world. We can hope. I am dehydrating much more this year to cut down on jar lid use as well. As hot as you get there they have some great solar dehydrators that can be made pretty inexpensively that may be an alternative also. |
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Post by Stealth on Aug 29, 2020 13:13:23 GMT 10
Oh you've reminded me! My dehydrator ate it last season. A couple of years of strawberry and tomato dehydrating and it bit the dust. Not surprising, I tend to leave it running out in the garage to keep the noise levels down as it was a fairly cheap unit. I'm going to have to look into a new one, the old one did ok for it's price but I've seen the Excalibur range and they do make my food-storage squirrel heart go pitter-pat rofl.
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