malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Mar 20, 2022 7:23:07 GMT 10
A quick note re bug out vehicles. Regards an EMP/CME event. Most preppers know that such an event will cripple a modern vehicles electronics, so they opt for an older model with no computer controls, a diesel engine that has a mechanical fuel injection system, park on a hill to give gravity start etc. But, there is a flaw in that line of thought.
All modern vehicles, from the 1960's on, have an alternator fitted. All well and good, but inside the alternator are solid state diodes to convert the ac to dc to charge the battery. These will go a short circuit (The normal failure mode of a semiconductor by the way), and will either self destruct, or burn something out, or even start a fire.
Most alternator regulators from the 1970's on, are also solid state, whereas the earlier ones were called air gap types and used mechanical solenoids and relays to regulate the output voltage.
Even if your BOV survives the event, and starts, the chances that the battery wont be able to be charged is quite high, due to the damaged alternator.
Solution.....
A generator, if you can find one. Most pre 1960's vehicles had generators fitted and they used air gap regulators almost exclusively. The generator isnt as efficient as an alternator, nor can it put out as much power, it has issues with commutator and brush wear, but is much more robust electrically than the more modern alternator.
Our BOV is a 1971 Diesel Land-rover 4wd, fitted with 4 off 6 volt battery's (In 2 X 12 volt systems), and 2 off C45 generators rated at 25 amps each, set up to charge each battery pak separately. The engine need no electrics to work, not even to start, no solenoid on the injector pump, just a stop cable attached directly to the stop lever. As EMP/CME proof as I can make it. Fitted with 2 fuel tanks, giving a range in excess of 800 km, a pre 1960's AM/SW valve car radio, powered from a vibrator power pak (Mechanical again), and a few other bits n pieces to round it out. Not comfortable, or quiet, but reliable. And as EMP/CME proof as I can make it.
Oh yes, get rid of the led lighting, it wont survive either.
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djagr
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Post by djagr on Mar 20, 2022 8:59:12 GMT 10
Sounds like your all set with your BOV I've been thinking about this for a good while now, and I'm leaning toward building an onroad off-road buggy. Something quick with good suspension and and no electronics. Easier said than done I suppose, any suggestions for a engine would be greatly appreciated, I have designed the frame partly in Solidworks but haven't fully delved into engines and what is available.
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spatial
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Post by spatial on Mar 20, 2022 12:17:44 GMT 10
My understanding is the EMP/CME don't have any impact on vehicles, especially those with high percentage of metal. The vehicle acts as a faraday cage. If the vehicle is not running at time of CME or in a shed there is no impacts.
EMP/CME will damage power lines that stretch over long areas and transformers attached to the power lines will be taken out. There are only a few transformer manufactures in the world - it would take years to get power grid restored.
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tactile
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Post by tactile on Mar 20, 2022 12:41:26 GMT 10
Look up EMP Myths on YouTube or the net...plenty of arguments against real world issues caused by EMPs. Most cars would be fine IMO, you need a pretty large conductor for energy to be induced into, and car electronics are pretty well shielded already. Mains power and comms has the potential to be effected most, that's still something to be taken seriously but not everything with a PN junction will be destroyed instantaneously all around the world.
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Mar 20, 2022 13:06:11 GMT 10
The main issue with the old landrover, is that I cant crank the engine over by hand, too much compression. A spark ignition engine, with a magneto, instead of conventional ignition may be better, especially as it can be hand cranked. Also, magnetos are robust, as evidenced by the number still in operation 50 years old. Be aware, newer types use solid state electronics, u need the older air gap types, with mechanical points.
Another advantage with a spark ignition engine, is its ability to run on homemade wood gas from a pyroliser unit. This gives almost unlimited range and fuel. I suppose tires will then be the limiting factor after a few years.
Smash forehead on keyboard to continue.
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djagr
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Post by djagr on Mar 20, 2022 13:43:11 GMT 10
The main issue with the old landrover, is that I cant crank the engine over by hand, too much compression. A spark ignition engine, with a magneto, instead of conventional ignition may be better, especially as it can be hand cranked. Also, magnetos are robust, as evidenced by the number still in operation 50 years old. Be aware, newer types use solid state electronics, u need the older air gap types, with mechanical points. Another advantage with a spark ignition engine, is its ability to run on homemade wood gas from a pyroliser unit. This gives almost unlimited range and fuel. I suppose tires will then be the limiting factor after a few years. Smash forehead on keyboard to continue. Tyres can definitely be a pain point, because if don't use them you loose them anyway. Anything rubber seems to depreciate quickly in the elements. |
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Mar 20, 2022 15:23:18 GMT 10
And, also, after 10 years or so, there will be no battery's left. Most don't realize that an alternator needs a source of field excitation. This used to be provided via the ignition or alt light on the dashboard. Take away the battery and no field, no output, so even if u manage to get the vehicle started, cranked by hand with a magneto ignition, when it starts it will have no electric power. Some early alternators would self excite if spun up fast enough, or there was a bit of residual magnetic field in the poles to give it a kick off. Then, the issue will be the high voltage pulse created when it does kick over which can easily exceed several 100 volts, damaging the internal diodes and possibly anything connected, especially if the battery is U/S and effectively an open circuit. Just like disconnecting the battery on a vehicle whilst its running nowadays.
The solution, once again, is an old fashioned dc generator. Inherently self exited due to the heavy iron poles that are not laminated, a relative slow buildup (the time constant of the magnetic path is slow), of the output due to the iron path and windings, so no high voltage spike at start up.
Just maybe after TSHTF and 10 years later, u may find a dry charged battery in a storehouse somewhere, and if so, it may be able to be reactivated. But, dry charged battery's haven't been around for many years now.
File no found-Fake it ? Y/N
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Mar 20, 2022 16:09:53 GMT 10
I'm told a horse is emp proof.
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iceage
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Post by iceage on Mar 20, 2022 18:16:38 GMT 10
I'm told a horse is emp proof. And a few alpacas could probably pull a decent sized horse cart. |
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captain
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Post by captain on Mar 20, 2022 20:25:06 GMT 10
I'm told a horse is emp proof. A pushy is too…. |
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captain
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Post by captain on Mar 20, 2022 20:29:31 GMT 10
If you are concerned about emp - and you are able to get a car that is going, another thing to think or worry about is getting fuel. The vast majority of bowsers these days are all electronically driven. So if you car does survive the emp, and you have driven the tank of fuel out, unless you have jerry cans that are ready, then you may find it hard in getting more fuel….
Otoh, a horse or a pushy will keep you going. Sure it may take you more time to travel 800kms, but you can keep travelling too….and not draw as much attention to yourself too…
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spatial
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Post by spatial on Mar 20, 2022 21:47:39 GMT 10
Just need a solar charger for vehicle battery, after one week there will be unlimited amount of batteries as everyone runs out of fuel.
Fuel the limiting factor.
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Post by spinifex on Mar 21, 2022 17:31:05 GMT 10
History proves the bicycle is the go-to transport in resource poor situations.
Better than a horse in that it needs to feed. Huge advantage in most situations.
However ... one can shoot well in most directions from horseback while riding ... try that on a pushy !!
And ... horses are without peer for cross country transport.
But really ... I want one of these ... to do my shopping twice a week ... and make a bold statement during bug-out ...
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Mar 21, 2022 17:33:12 GMT 10
My mate has a hummer. Sounds like a GT falcon. It certainly makes a statement.
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Post by Joey on Mar 21, 2022 21:21:04 GMT 10
I would like to see how all those flash new EV's would go after an EMP lol those battery packs are volatile enough under normal circumstances
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Tim Horton
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Post by Tim Horton on Mar 22, 2022 6:26:02 GMT 10
The last couple summers a vehicle I have missed is a mid-late 1990s Dodge Dakota pickup..
It was 2 wheel drive, 4 cylinder, 5 speed.. Nothing fancy, but basic 98% of the year cheap transportation..
We would take it, a bottle of water, thermos of tea, list of addresses and garage sale all day for little expense..
Why is it some cars have such lasting memories attached.. ??
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Mar 22, 2022 7:28:12 GMT 10
Fuel will be an issue after the collapse, even if stored with inhibitor, its life span is only a few years. Diesel is better, and if stored in an airtight container )so it doesn't oxidize), life can be up to 10 years or more.
However, the ultimate in fuel is to do it yourself. We have 300 odd 30 year old olive trees, there's the oil and its not that hard to crush olives in a homemade smasher and extract the oil, let it settle the water off, and u have fuel. Albeit, a bit of work, but doable.
The alternative is producer or wood gas. Easy to do, with a homemade retort and filter, and the gas will run almost any normal 4 stroke engine, actually, the bigger the better, a big block V8 runs really well on it. Downsides are, not a instant start up, depending n the wood source, less than 80 % of the power of petrol, fiddly in relation to getting the air/gas ratio right, but it does work.
An old petrol/kero Ferguson tractor can run without any modifications from wood gas, giving almost unlimited horse power for farming on a reasonably large scale. The air to gas mixture issue isn't a problem as a tractor runs under a pretty constant or only a slowly varying load when rotary hoeing or ploughing, and it will also have a lower range gearing to cope with the lower power output of producer gas.
I ran my Mitsubishi ute from my pyroliser unit and apart from the slight acceleration lag, it did work. )The pyroliser was destroyed when my tractor battery shorted out internally and burnt it to the ground some years ago).
I now have my own on farm fire truck and trailer, hoses at every building, tanks and pumps etc.
Fuel for thought.
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peter1942
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Post by peter1942 on Mar 24, 2022 13:38:05 GMT 10
Seems to me to be one hell of a lot of work for a vehicle that would not be needed if one was already living where they believe they have the best chance of surviving a SHTF situation.
Toys for the boys.
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grumble
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Post by grumble on Mar 24, 2022 16:09:25 GMT 10
My experience in recent years has taught me on thing
cars are fragile no matter how well you service them or build them for a lot of vehicles it wont be EMPS or lack of fuel that brings them to a grinding halt it will be all the other random things that break them multiplied by a 1000 due to the stress of the situation
Broken springs , axles, diff, radiators the list goes on these are things i personally have encountered on the roads over the last couple of years and the truth is the best idea would be to use it to get to a safer location if need be and park it up for another day
I'm not saying they don't have a role i just don't think a lot of people understand how its so easy for a vehicle to be rendered inoperable or unusable
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moopere
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Post by moopere on Nov 8, 2022 0:49:07 GMT 10
I was going to start my own thread on this subject but theres plenty of good thoughts right here so hope no-one minds if I semi necro a several months old thread  grumble I agree. Most vehicles be they civilian or military require a ton of upkeep to keep them running. Without logistics backing you up its almost a hopeless task trying to keep a 'few spares' on the shelf unless they're for commonly known faults or are otherwise consumable because murphy's law will have its way and the wiggly-widget (tm) which is under the thinga-ma-bob will break and take down your whole vehicle even though you might have spare engines and god knows what back at your bunker. Many years ago I toyed with the idea of trying to mitigate this somewhat by planning to have 1 or even 2 'spares' vehicles to cannibalize and keep the prime machine running. I've moved away from that idea now. Having been a driver for many years I've experienced that cars like all engineering have weaknesses in their design which cause certain things to break much much more commonly than other things, so I'd simply end up with 3 dead vehicles all with broken doohickeys. Having said all that though, keeping a horse and cart on hand for when it might be needed comes with its own problems and a bicycle or two which is a great idea frankly for when (if) you get into a settled situation won't help me get the family and equipment out of harms way. I want to get into scenario building later, perhaps in a different post, but I've really been coming around to the idea of an EV lately. I'm not an EV fan by any stretch as a general thing, but the idea struck me a year or so ago that they are relatively simple devices, at least the motive bit is much simpler than a reasonably modern ICE and presumably with a few solar cells and some patience you could circumvent the whole lack of fuel issue - which in my view would make most ICE vehicles obsolete within just days of an event - storing fuel is fine, but if you're bugging out then you can only hope you're bugging out to exactly where your cache of fuel is stored and that no-one else got to your stuff before you did. Thoughts? I've never owned an EV, perhaps they are just as pernickety or worse than an older ICE vehicle because of all the electronics and 'phoning home' that tends to go on. Obviously I'm talking about a plug-in EV, a plug-in hybrid would also potentially work I guess so long as the particular vehicle didn't complain if the liquid fuel bit of itself was constantly dry. I'm thinking not only of the power/fuel side but the drive train side of things. My understanding with CVT's is that they are far simpler than auto or manual gearboxes. The urban legend is building that you don't need to service or even maintain an EV (in the traditional sense) until something actually wears out and breaks. |
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