frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Sept 24, 2022 18:18:19 GMT 10
I think the EV push is mainly from metro dwellers who rarely, if ever, venture beyond the suburbs. They have no concept that lots of people travel thousands of km in an outback so vast you might go 500km or more between towns. When an EV ute can tow 2 tonne and travel 700km before needing a recharge, and recharge in less than 5 minutes, then I might get interested. Until then they are not fit for purpose. End of story.
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Tim Horton
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Post by Tim Horton on Sept 24, 2022 18:49:31 GMT 10
When an EV ute can tow 2 tonne and travel 700km before needing a recharge, and recharge in less than 5 minutes, then I might get interested. Until then they are not fit for purpose. End of story.
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You know.... Someday that technology may come true... But until that is a reliable platform.. And in our area throw in that it is as dependable in winter...
Until that happens.. I will not participate in the concept...
My 5 cents of opinion..
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Post by Joey on Sept 24, 2022 19:25:54 GMT 10
I think the biggest pushback on EV's is that the .gov crowd are forcing it on us rather than just letting it put along with ICE sales, at least until there is a load more money spent in charging infrastructure and power grid upgrades to cope with the larger amount of EV's on the road.
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bug
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Post by bug on Sept 24, 2022 19:28:46 GMT 10
When an EV ute can tow 2 tonne and travel 700km before needing a recharge, and recharge in less than 5 minutes, then I might get interested. Until then they are not fit for purpose. End of story. --- You know.... Someday that technology may come true... But until that is a reliable platform.. And in our area throw in that it is as dependable in winter... Until that happens.. I will not participate in the concept... My 5 cents of opinion.. When an ICE ute can drive three feet without emitting carcinogenic fumes I'll be interested. Until then they are not fit for purpose. End of story. |
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tactile
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Post by tactile on Sept 24, 2022 19:58:18 GMT 10
I think the EV push is mainly from metro dwellers who rarely, if ever, venture beyond the suburbs. They have no concept that lots of people travel thousands of km in an outback so vast you might go 500km or more between towns. When an EV ute can tow 2 tonne and travel 700km before needing a recharge, and recharge in less than 5 minutes, then I might get interested. Until then they are not fit for purpose. End of story. Funny you should say that...happened onto this vid earlier today.
I might also add that "metro dwellers" are also the majority of car buyers so you wont have a choice if you have a niche requirement. It's already happening with large towing diesels. A lot of manufacturers are dropping them - Jeep is the latest one. Grey Nomads are quickly losing choice to tow their caravans.
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dadbod
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Post by dadbod on Sept 24, 2022 22:08:33 GMT 10
I think the EV push is mainly from metro dwellers who rarely, if ever, venture beyond the suburbs. They have no concept that lots of people travel thousands of km in an outback so vast you might go 500km or more between towns. When an EV ute can tow 2 tonne and travel 700km before needing a recharge, and recharge in less than 5 minutes, then I might get interested. Until then they are not fit for purpose. End of story. Again you seem to be unwilling to even consider adapting but sure, I hope you can continue your 700km 2tonne towing ventures with a 5 min turnaround. I dont think that use case is realistic... but sure. if you wanna drive like that and are unwilling to possibly change any variable in that scenario, then i guess you wont adapt at the end of your story. the thing with ICE vehicles is that sooner or later, with the decreased demand, yet fixed (or increasing) costs of supply, fuel costs will increase. this will be shown particularly in remote areas. if metro dwellers lowered their fuel consumption then fuel prices will go up. I wonder how many 700km 2 tonne towing vetures are possible at $2/L, $3/L, $4/L. If you can afford it then thats great, but alot cant afford that and all of a sudden their asset is now worthless. secondhand markets will crash. all car manufacturers are heading that way, i think businesses see the market and opportunities. its not hard to read the tea leaves. most carsales happen where there are the most people, ofcourse they lead the way. |
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dadbod
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Post by dadbod on Sept 24, 2022 22:12:33 GMT 10
I think the biggest pushback on EV's is that the .gov crowd are forcing it on us rather than just letting it put along with ICE sales, at least until there is a load more money spent in charging infrastructure and power grid upgrades to cope with the larger amount of EV's on the road. I guess thats one way of looking at it, you could also imagine what would happen if corporate handouts and concessions to fossil fuels were stopped or even better put into the infrastructure you suggested. it seems that the gov is on both sides. |
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Sept 24, 2022 22:25:46 GMT 10
I think the EV push is mainly from metro dwellers who rarely, if ever, venture beyond the suburbs. They have no concept that lots of people travel thousands of km in an outback so vast you might go 500km or more between towns. When an EV ute can tow 2 tonne and travel 700km before needing a recharge, and recharge in less than 5 minutes, then I might get interested. Until then they are not fit for purpose. End of story. Again you seem to be unwilling to even consider adapting but sure, I hope you can continue your 700km 2tonne towing ventures with a 5 min turnaround. I dont think that use case is realistic... but sure. if you wanna drive like that and are unwilling to possibly change any variable in that scenario, then i guess you wont adapt at the end of your story. the thing with ICE vehicles is that sooner or later, with the decreased demand, yet fixed (or increasing) costs of supply, fuel costs will increase. this will be shown particularly in remote areas. if metro dwellers lowered their fuel consumption then fuel prices will go up. I wonder how many 700km 2 tonne towing vetures are possible at $2/L, $3/L, $4/L. If you can afford it then thats great, but alot cant afford that and all of a sudden their asset is now worthless. secondhand markets will crash. all car manufacturers are heading that way, i think businesses see the market and opportunities. its not hard to read the tea leaves. most carsales happen where there are the most people, ofcourse they lead the way. Not realistic for you perhaps, but I do a 700km round trip to one of my retreats every 4 to 6 weeks, often towing my dual axle trailer. I'm not against battery power, most of my tools are battery powered, even my favourite chainsaw, and when my supply of mowers eventually die (I own 6 mowers across 3 properties) I will convert to electric mowers, but currently EV vehicles are only good for metros. I disagree with you on the economics of falling demand. That usually results in cheaper prices as suppliers attempt to maintain sales. Basic economics, really. Plenty of evidence of that with petrol prices in the last 3 years. $4 per litre isn't a problem for me anyway. 35 years of financial prepping has it's benefits. Ever heard of a niche market? Eventually petrol cars will become one, more expensive for sure, but still available. Where there is demand there will always be supply. |
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norseman
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Post by norseman on Sept 25, 2022 4:06:19 GMT 10
I think the biggest pushback on EV's is that the .gov crowd are forcing it on us rather than just letting it put along with ICE sales, at least until there is a load more money spent in charging infrastructure and power grid upgrades to cope with the larger amount of EV's on the road. Mate you got it right there! Instead of allowing it to evolve in sync with market forces, technological improvements, development of infrastructure etc the filth in Government have weaponised it and are now starting to beat people around the head with EV. |
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dadbod
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Post by dadbod on Sept 25, 2022 15:26:16 GMT 10
I totally understand the economics of it, but dont see that applying across a complex system of extraction, refinery, transport and retail. the costs of providing the goods will increase as they use fuel themselves. decreasing the cost is done by increasing supply and is done to increase demand... which cant happen as EV becomes dominant, even if only for metro dwellers. businesses wont be able to decrease costs sustainably and service stations will eventually close/transition to another fuel source.
I think thats great that you can afford $4/L, but i know that most cant, and i personally wouldnt on principle. how would a decrease in consumption of 10% look? What does that do to the market? what about 30? how many servos could run selling that less volume?
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Sept 25, 2022 16:42:19 GMT 10
There would be fewer servos, which is fine with me, they are everywhere at the moment. It might put a heap of local Indians out of work though, which is also fine with me.
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rastus
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Post by rastus on Sept 25, 2022 20:16:26 GMT 10
I think the biggest pushback on EV's is that the .gov crowd are forcing it on us rather than just letting it put along with ICE sales, at least until there is a load more money spent in charging infrastructure and power grid upgrades to cope with the larger amount of EV's on the road. The problem with people who are ideologically driven rather than practically driven is that are they are binary thinkers. EV's are good for many use cases, and they are also an absolute PITA in other use cases. A practical person will say "use whatever technology fits the situation". An ideologically driven person will dismiss reality whenever it doesn't match their views and double down on cultivated ignorance. The people in charge these days are overwhelmingly ideologically driven, hence why there is so many "anti-reality" decisions being made for us (and not just in energy). |
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 26, 2022 8:21:47 GMT 10
Follow the money.......
Sometimes you need to stop seeing the good in people and start seeing what they are showing you.
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dadbod
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Post by dadbod on Sept 26, 2022 8:40:17 GMT 10
I think the biggest pushback on EV's is that the .gov crowd are forcing it on us rather than just letting it put along with ICE sales, at least until there is a load more money spent in charging infrastructure and power grid upgrades to cope with the larger amount of EV's on the road. The problem with people who are ideologically driven rather than practically driven is that are they are binary thinkers. EV's are good for many use cases, and they are also an absolute PITA in other use cases. A practical person will say "use whatever technology fits the situation". An ideologically driven person will dismiss reality whenever it doesn't match their views and double down on cultivated ignorance. The people in charge these days are overwhelmingly ideologically driven, hence why there is so many "anti-reality" decisions being made for us (and not just in energy). very true, and i dont want to drag this thread away from its topic but polarised politics is toxic for everyone. The cutting meat consumption one gets me everytime. I just cant see anything in that policy direction but trying to satisfy certain idological politics. back to the topic, the govt is providing massive handouts to petroleum companies, and promoting the uptake of EVs. the libertarian in me wants the govt out of both. I know that trying to predict the future is foolish, and I most likely have timespans wrong, but out of the use of the precautionary principle I am derisking from fossil fuels as much as I can control. If I am wrong, I am left with a self sustaining energy source and vehicle. if im right, then the crashing wave may not hurt my family as much. |
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dadbod
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Post by dadbod on Sept 26, 2022 8:45:41 GMT 10
There would be fewer servos, which is fine with me, they are everywhere at the moment. It might put a heap of local Indians out of work though, which is also fine with me. yeah, but I am not sure how that would game out. which would collapse? would any of them survive? would the profits not filtering back through the chain stop extraction? I dont think its as simple as some closing down. it would also mean other businesses close down. This would be the destruction for the new creation. there will be massive losses. |
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malewithatail
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Post by malewithatail on Sept 26, 2022 13:15:16 GMT 10
"I know that trying to predict the future is foolish, and I most likely have timespans wrong, but out of the use of the precautionary principle I am derisking from fossil fuels as much as I can control. If I am wrong, I am left with a self sustaining energy source and vehicle. if im right, then the crashing wave may not hurt my family as much."
No its not, that's why we prep. And disentangling ones family and lifestyle from the mainstream is also empowering and fun, not even counting the blessings from being independent and knowing you will survive a natural or man made disaster.
Be kind, unless you can be fantastic, then be fantastically kind.
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bug
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Post by bug on Sept 27, 2022 15:04:01 GMT 10
The problem with people who are ideologically driven rather than practically driven is that are they are binary thinkers. EV's are good for many use cases, and they are also an absolute PITA in other use cases. A practical person will say "use whatever technology fits the situation". An ideologically driven person will dismiss reality whenever it doesn't match their views and double down on cultivated ignorance. The people in charge these days are overwhelmingly ideologically driven, hence why there is so many "anti-reality" decisions being made for us (and not just in energy). very true, and i dont want to drag this thread away from its topic but polarised politics is toxic for everyone. The cutting meat consumption one gets me everytime. I just cant see anything in that policy direction but trying to satisfy certain idological politics. back to the topic, the govt is providing massive handouts to petroleum companies, and promoting the uptake of EVs. the libertarian in me wants the govt out of both. I know that trying to predict the future is foolish, and I most likely have timespans wrong, but out of the use of the precautionary principle I am derisking from fossil fuels as much as I can control. If I am wrong, I am left with a self sustaining energy source and vehicle. if im right, then the crashing wave may not hurt my family as much. Agree completely. One thing that seems to be completely lacking in today's society is that you can disagree with someone but still get along with them and stay friends. Even the most heated of debate should not result in enmity. I've noticed this vastly more with my left leaning friends than conservatives. The left all too often seems to see it as somehow a good thing to be completely intolerant and even hateful towards anyone who doesn't think like them. That's counterproductive as you never change minds that way, and more importantly it makes you a bad person. The attitude of conservatives seems to be more of the "Meh, let them virtue signal. We don't care." variety. Far more healtyh imho. Where this is relevant to the topic is that EVs are clearly the future of transport, but if you have a bunch of people trying to ram it down people's throats whilst insulting them, all you'll get it pushback. And where people make throwaway lines, a pisstake of it is just fine so long as nobody loses an eye. |
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bug
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Post by bug on Sept 27, 2022 15:12:23 GMT 10
There would be fewer servos, which is fine with me, they are everywhere at the moment. It might put a heap of local Indians out of work though, which is also fine with me. yeah, but I am not sure how that would game out. which would collapse? would any of them survive? would the profits not filtering back through the chain stop extraction? I dont think its as simple as some closing down. it would also mean other businesses close down. This would be the destruction for the new creation. there will be massive losses. I don't see how servos can survive an uptake in EVs. They rely on an economy of scale. Small local servos are dying out. Only the large ones on main roads and highways are surviving. Take away a significant chunk of their business and they will die. The logistics involved in petroleum are just awful 1) Mine, often in a politically unstable area. 2) Ship to refinery. Usually very long distance. 3) Refine. For Australia, most of our fuel is refined in Singapore. (Guess what stops happening if the PRC starts shooting in the South China Sea?) 4) Ship to import terminal. (Easy target for sabotage) 5) Store in tanks. (again, sabotage) 6) Truck to petrol station. 7) Store and dispense. This is an incredibly fragile chain of supply. Worse, it's dependent on so many other things. Can't get gaskets because the factory in the PRC won't sell them to you during conflict? Pipe shuts down. Ironically, even an electricity outage also causes a petrol 'outage'. All it takes is a critical link in that chain to fail, be it economically, politically or under military threat, and the whole thing collapses. It's madness to depend on this, yet it is exactly what Australia is doing right now. |
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frostbite
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Post by frostbite on Sept 27, 2022 16:14:31 GMT 10
I'd argue that the electricity grid is just as vulnerable as the supply chain for petrol. A bushfire, severe storm or lack of maintenance on critical parts of the grid and your EV becomes a very expensive boat anchor.
Saw a report today that metro unit dwellers are having issues getting body corporate approval to place recharge points in the parking areas. Pethaps the EV lovers can get really green and ditch the car for a bicycle.
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Post by Joey on Sept 27, 2022 17:59:37 GMT 10
I reckon that they should be pushing more for hybrid vehicles over total EV, at least for the meantime until they can figure out what they are going to do to improve the power grid for mass EV charging.
If push came to shove, I would buy a hybrid navara, as with the distances I nee to travel when I do trips to town, the current range of EVs would require me to stay the night there while the car charges overnight.
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